WRKO>Audio & Video on Demand>>Kuhner VS. Jacoby. 8/1/14

Kuhner VS. Jacoby. 8/1/14

Aug 1, 2014|

Who do you think won?

Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

Our report here on the great WRK okay M six debut now on my. -- three of the corner reports 617666868. While my France. Jeff Jacoby Boston Globe columnist isn't studio right in front of me he has entered the lions then. -- the corner man. We're here to debate his column obviously which appeared on Wednesday. July 30. Jeff I want to thank you so much for coming in studio I appreciate. If I -- the lions stand and we know how this is gonna turn out -- that we thought we both recognize that reference. So to -- Lee Daniels and I'm also but actually you wearing a a bat man's -- so I think I've entered the fact yeah. All right so I'm all right Jeff I'm RC wrote your column. Let me start off by asking you this common -- straight from your colonized want to answer. I think as much time as you need. Here is the third paragraph of your column. Much of their rhetoric active Beacon Hill rally office were talking about the rally on Saturday -- stop the invasion rally that many members of corner country showed up. Thousands upon thousands. Much in -- regulate the very first sentence citing referred to witness thousands even though I know some of the coverage was. Minimizing it it was clear to me I wasn't at the rally but I watched the video will be popped tire thing was clear there were thousands of people there and I think it's a tremendous testament that you it would bring -- -- -- many people so no you know no attempt by -- To minimize I got that intensity in the numbers will be I don't know if I can I appreciate that Jeff. -- right -- and I'm quoting now directly. Much of their rhetoric at the Beacon Hill rally was unhinged. And you quote mark Fisher and myself here's what you said about you -- mark Fisher quote. Our government sees no difference between law abiding freedom loving taxpaying citizens. And law breaking aliens quote unquote said Marc Fisher they Tea Party conservative running for the Republican gubernatorial nomination. You go want to say talk radio host Jeff corner invade against these quote gangsters in the governor's office and the Oval Office unquote. Who want to quote turn Massachusetts in two Massachusetts. Unquote. And the United States into late quote socialist Third World banana republic unquote. You can go want to say savor the irony the composer of garlic and America don't skip the paragraph read that regal lying read a sentence between those since the Oklahoma -- August no I know you're you're you -- questioner. Well if you walk into a second but. Savored the irony the composer of god bless America was Irving Berlin. Who came to America as a five year old when his family then name bullying fled Russia in 1993. To escape life threatening -- drops. And you basically described. Berlin's background how of course he was the author of god bless America. And so you point out the irony that we ended our rally by singing god bless America. Win and you talk about the nativist. And how many have been made of this in the nineteenth century. Complained about being flooded by illegal immigrants how it was undermining the wages of working class Americans the standard of life. And so had we listened to the native lists of the 1880s and 1890s. There would have been -- Irving Berlin no god bless America. And so the irony is. That we as you point out in the piece are basically the descendants of them activists. That's not had our argument prevailed then. There would have been no -- Irving Berlin no god bless America and a wonderful contributions that previous waves of immigrants. I can I gave to this country. And then you end with this this is your watch them I'm gonna read to you the last two paragraphs. Today's anti immigration advocates sometimes claim to a poll it's only quote unquote illegal immigrants. They specious distinction that didn't exist for most of American history. Or they say they object only to the immigration driven cost of welfare and public services. Or to the nation's border not being secure. -- the refusal of immigrants to assimilate or they blamed foreign governments for exporting undesirable people to the United States. Or they argue meaningless -- that America already has enough people and -- BA refuge for everyone. Here's your ultimate paragraph. But the same things more or less were -- fifty or hundred or 150 years ago by earlier generations have made it lists. Then it was set about immigrants from China. Italy and Russia. Now it is set about those from Honduras Guatemala and El Salvador. Stop the invasion the protesters demand. What they're really saying is we go out here first and we don't need anymore of your content. So. If you make three accusations in the column number one. You claimed that statements made by myself and mark Fisher. Were unhinged. Basically. Local crazy. Number two. You clearly. Link us to the nativist of the nineteenth century. Basically as a bunch of xenophobic Nationalists. And finally and to me frankly the most despicable part of your column. -- you liable and smear and slander. Everybody who attended that rally and everybody who feels the way I do which is the majority of this country. I just because we want to secure the border. The reason why we want to secure the border. Despite all of our reasons. What's really driving it is we just don't want their content. Meaning wink wink. We all want peace Hispanics and Latinos from Central America coming into the United States so my question to you was this. Do you have -- dirt smeared and -- not only me. Not only the audience but the people who attended that rally. You have accused us of being unhinged. You've accused us falsely of email lists and you've falsely accused us of being racists. Will you give this audience and the people at that rally an apology for your -- I'll certainly explain it because I don't think that -- explain my column correctly at all first of all you leave out -- -- I realize that I didn't Tennessee could read the entire column but let's just add one or two lines here that. Make it clear that my attitude toward the people in the audience toward you toward those who turned out. Was not to -- US members on the fringe or people who don't want their country. I made it clear from the very beginning that the point of view that you were expressing. Is a mainstream opinion that even in Massachusetts 43%. Which is a pretty substantial number shared the point of view. And I wrote that even if the speeches were over the top. There's little reason to question the sincerity and the patriotism. Of the protesters -- wrote the column I meant that I would nicely and out. As well. Don't take your your three point for politic in reverse order I -- smearing anybody as weak we -- source any other kind of racist. I -- for playing the race card by Britain column after column after column. Denouncing liberals and Democrats who routinely played the race card I find that to be the most contemptible kind of of a false argumentation. And -- -- play now and if that's what you're reading into my -- into my column. The word racist does the dirty work or Hispanic in the purity are well I awhile while I while perfect. Well Jeff Spybot and Jeff you're spending too much say yeah let me read you're the one who doesn't -- -- do you word for -- let me take its -- with -- -- candidate I guess I don't but let me read you hold on to -- Jeff pulled off. But this same things more or less were said fifty are a hundred or 150 years ago. By earlier generations of native lists so you're accusing us -- -- nativist is right there Davis doesn't mean racist you I mean xenophobic -- -- certainly -- yes it -- to adjust Jeff -- Jeff actually look it up yes I'll be happy to look up. Then it was said about immigrants from China. Italy and Russia. Now it is set about those from Honduras Guatemala and El Salvador. Stop the invasion the protesters demand. What they're really saying yes we got here first. And we don't need any more of your kind stats -- -- it's not racism and the two are not when you say -- -- behind -- what does that mean your kind anymore of your upon the whole point is whoever is coming in at that moment that's the one that we don't need any more from Honduras Guatemala and El Salvador now and and -- and -- fifty years ago if it was the ones coming in from firm or a hundred years ago it was the ones coming in from China are the ones who were coming from Italy or the ones coming in from Croatia -- the what's coming in from Slovakia. Whoever's coming in at that point. Nativist which simply which. And I I not that I hope I'm not a nativist I don't share that point did you hit separate it says it it's is just a simple now owned. Need to visit him and -- of -- -- to be pejorative term. I'm glad to hear you say so because I think that aren't -- -- that you you shy away from the term nativist. Just like a lot of liberals -- highway for the term liberal we find some other term to describe themselves -- -- but we're not liberal -- progressive because the word liberal has taken on a negative connotations but you would agree with the liberal by itself is not a project or -- please this is -- he kept my interest said Jeff. This is not Bill Clinton I'm not gonna stand here and and argue with you what the definition of the word is. Don't talk to me about liberals the definition are liberals might question to use this -- Let me let me ask you this now twice that you said I take as much and you want to answer and haven't even got to make up all right go ahead doesn't reasonable goal. Made this are people who put the interests of native born or of current residents of the country ahead of those or who -- people who -- promote their interest. To to the exclusion of those who want to come into the country that's what needed this in the is had a great irony or one of the great ironies of this whole debate and all of American history is on the one hand we -- in huge numbers of people. From all over the world and even as we're doing that there's always this wave of native is import these waves of native isn't from people who push back against it. Once upon a time it was Benjamin Franklin in the 1750s. How league about the Germans who were pouring across the border and how they weren't speaking English and they are working to become American and they were never gonna assimilate what -- today's. Who who would say that about Germans. And then it was upset about that I were school would say that about the Irish now than it was said about the Chinese and about Russians and about croatians who would say that about them now. Today it's being said about the ones who are coming in now. People from Central America people from Latin America I don't make it as a racist point I make it as a historical point and make it as a political point and just as. Germans and Russians. And Italians and poles and Jews. Added enormously to the value of this country and to the melting pot until the richness that we all celebrate when we think about what's so great this country. I predict that fifty years from now. People will be saying exactly the same thing about the waves of Latin Americans and central Americans who came to this country in the late nineteen net ninety's in and -- and in the early 21 century. That's the point it's not a point about race it's a point about the reaction against immigration and that reaction against immigration -- all the way back. To the beginning of this country so YouTube you put -- three things number one this act this charge I'm accusing anybody being a racist is false. I abhor the playing of the race car. And meet this I guess we can disagree about whether that's it that's a disparaging term. I think a bit like I think of socialism more I think of left is a repeat of marxism has a philosophy that I -- Disagree with but that many people -- passionately I can disagree with those people with -- and -- assaulting them by describing their point of view. And unhinged. OK -- you. College you don't like the word unhinged I didn't say you personally running in states had much to the rhetoric. Was unhinged I know the difference between it's and its a person is crazy and that kind of things that make -- had to rally can be over the top. But I would say that if you look. At my -- that what I Britain about immigration or by any other issue over the years you know perfectly well our listeners know perfectly well. I'm a great believer in that robust fly east the principled. Argumentation. I have no problem with the rough and tumble I've been a lot of time believer if he can dish it out you ought to be able to take it. And I don't see why there can't be a disagreement between conservatives. On this issue. Or any other issue. Without somebody being told that he's a phony conservative. Urge you to assume I got the car yesterday picture on the radio first -- -- kind of outcome came out of the radio speaker work. Judas Jacoby Selena where we you don't -- station was tuned to. Now I feel we can argue what weather how nativist should be understood it. I don't think there's anyway to argue about how the word Judas should be understood that -- finally -- Oh whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Are you implying that an anti -- no what do you tell me what is -- me a -- exactly. And I smile I'll give you wanna keep going -- not my life I'm gonna I wanna I wanna give you all the time that you needed all rebut all of your points go ahead MIA trader. While -- planet yes guard coming on the -- hole not finish what you've -- -- said because all all all deal with your points one by one goal that. Judas Jacoby so. If -- the trade on the interest that your attitude the way in which had and I know you're -- believing Christians so do you was termite Judas I know clearly has that as a deep emotional significance. And a phony conservative and in some ways that I think is what I find most troubling -- -- I'll tell you Jeff better. Than that there's an attitude on the left that everybody has to marching lockstep. It's the liberals who believe that you can't deviate from the party line. If you don't deviate from the party line if what if I Joseph Lieberman. Supports. You know of the -- though the war in Iraq that he gets drummed out of this party. If liberals don't. Go win in implying that lockstep on all the issues at the politically correct thought police insist on. They're told that they can't beat but consider part of the movement they're they're forced to recant their forced on to their knees. Conservatives are supposed to be like that we're supposed to be the philosophy the group that -- that relishes debate. And diversity of ideas not diversity of skin color her diversity of gender. We're supposed to be able to disagree with each other without. Regarding each -- and the -- where traders. And just -- I unbelievable like how I know a lot of my way to say. I acknowledged the patriotism of the sincerity Euro look the rally -- unbelievable life right now I I -- and I find it amazing to hear that because we disagree on this particular issue. And I drew me to -- the whole host of issues which we do agree that different a -- so I I -- I'm here so you can explain to me in my face what makes me trader. I'll get to that in a second but first of all. I know how -- games played I was in DC for over ten years. I was on the top columns of The Washington Times. And I know we're people who are advocating open borders how the game is played and I know how global is played -- game. So what you do is and so they always do in DC. They stand there and say all you're an honorable guy you're a good guy I don't question your patriotism. And then you stand there and smear smear smear smear. So you stand there and you cover yourself with this whole why didn't question their patriotism. But then you link them one of the most intolerant periods in our history. You link them to -- intolerant. Xenophile quick movements. That none of my listeners abdicate. That we didn't advocate at the rally that I don't advocates hell I had many immigrants saw how the hell can -- be in nativist. That's the point. Now you can deny your little cheap shot at the end how about we don't want their content. After basically saying they're coming from El Salvador they're coming from Guatemala they're coming from Honduras we know what you meant. We just don't like them because they're Hispanics now. Finally I threw my comments being unhinged yes that is an insult there's no question about it now I can easily crush you on that. Clearly Obama is destroying this country. Clearly we're being invaded by illegal immigrants. Clearly now we have debt levels we have fundamental dis functional problems in this country that were announced it is down to the rolled. Of socialist Third World banana republic if you don't wanna say it that's your problem. But facts are facts are facts now let me get to this point right now you talk about tolerance. You write a piece and you smear us you smear the people at the rally. You smear us is basically saying -- -- just like Henry Cabot Lodge who didn't like the Irish. Who really all we're saying is this. And this is what you in the open borders people don't wanna get through your skull. There are laws in this country. I fall old -- loss. I came in here I paid for my work visas I paid for Mike Green card. I abided by the laws customs and traditions of this nation I respected its sovereignty. You're telling me with a straight face. That demanding that we secured the border and that other people respect our laws and our customs and our sovereignty. It's the exact same thing as the neighbors of the nineteenth century are you kidding me we should be embarrassed. You should be embarrassed for peddling that I'm telling you right now to your face. And so what you do. Because you write for that democratic rank and it is a democratic Iraq is a propaganda mouthpiece for the Democratic Party is your their token conservative. And so when they come after me as they do. And say Jeff corner is a racist. Jeff corner is a big hit Jeff corner is a nativist Jeff corner is a quote extremist tea Bagger. -- look at Jeff Jacoby. Tuesday. Even Jeff Jacoby. The liberals the progressive you know they are what you read the comments on your own column now. Welding shut I don't know though -- well you should because that's what the leftists and hostility they -- discipline assign money Jeff it's my turn now. So where -- this is the game -- played. Even our conservative on alleged conservative quote unquote like Jeff Jacoby says you guys are crazy. You guys are unhinged Q -- your question nativist if you guys are quite sharp one point. Subtle racists. You do with Lenin called wood who referred to him as useful idiots. Do you serve the regime by destroying an incline and attacking the motives of your own site you talk about opponents. Where's the tolerance and your column. You stand there and accuse me of being a native just. And you don't even have the gall to call me up and asking for my own comment. I mean it's unbelievable. And then you -- your annual lecture me about -- If you wrote a column saying immigration has helped the United States we -- waves of immigrants before us Jeff corner is wrong and here's why he's wrong. We can have an open debate. But you didn't do that. You play to the gallery. And you know that you didn't. And you play your editors at the Boston Globe and you stand there and you stuck the knife. And to the people at the rally. By impugning their motives so let's get something straight. In the nineteenth century there was no welfare state. So when immigrants came here whether they liked or not they came to contribute. They came to produce they came to work. We now live in an age with a massive cradle to grave welfare state and as you know multi cultural -- -- so what do we have I cited the statistics at the rally which you wouldn't mention in your column. Two billion dollars annually is being squandered by the state on in a welfare benefits housing. He -- he cards food stamps Social Security you name it is being spent on illegal immigrants health care to a billion a year. To a billion a year. There are reports coming out what is Fox News a nativist organization is -- Texas Border Patrol nativist organization. There are now reporting MS thirteen gang members are flooding across our border. Gangs are flooding across our border. Governor Rick Perry of citing official taxes that this six cent over the last five years. There have been 8000. Sexual assaults 3000. Murders. Committed by illegal aliens in Texas all moment. And you're telling me it's the same as the Irish fleeing the capital fun. Are you serious not really are you serious. It's hard to have a debate. As opposed to just a shouting match. With somebody who accuses me of attacking the motives of anyone that I disagree with. While sitting they're attacking my motives not responding to my arguments but instead it's been but saying it's -- We know what you really mean you're just playing into your editors you're just wink wink -- -- calling us names. Jeff Jeff I get about you attacked me Jeff. You attacked me know what did I quoted you and then I respond you set I was unhinged. I said some of their rhetoric kept the rally was unattainable and -- what he's -- not get up some of what you're saying no is on he might lack. The point is we have to have a baseline are we having a a disagreement or we just gonna sleep insult. I'm not interested in coming on the air to to sleep insults I -- just didn't come to talk about issues. And to say that. Any argument that I make any point that I raised any challenge that I express. Should be dismissed because you know what I am really trying to say and I should try to deny what my real motives are. That's basically said we can't have a discussion we can't have a debate now look. A column of the Boston Globe -- my column of the Boston Globe gets may be 700 words. You get to speak thousands of words on the air every single day you know perfectly well especially if you -- columnist for The Washington Times you know perfectly well how. Irritating it can be when you'll hear from readers who will say well you did mention XYZ ABC FGH. Why did you leave that out. But sometimes you tell them listen. I don't get to put every single thing every single point every single fact in every single problem. I've been writing about immigration among other issues. The secret facts for the seven years and into the Boston Herald before that Mike position on this issue has been. Pretty consistent and pretty unwavering I think the conservative position. But I'm not a Republican and conservative but when I think the Republican position should be what the Ronald Reagan position more or less was. We welcome people to this country we welcome more deep. People to this country we want to be a haven for people who are fleeing dangerous places we recognize the economic potential book. The that the prosperity potential but people who come to this country. And the system that we've gotten out for letting them in his screwed up I said over and over and over in columns in person in speeches on the air. Keep the immigrants lose the welfare state to say to me. We're spending all this money on EBT cars on section eight housing and on all the rest of it that's why they're coming. Keep the emigrants and lose the welfare state I wanna join with you in fighting against the system in this country that makes it's so easy for people to go on welfare -- -- all these columns about Barack Obama's. Leading this country into that it's it's pretty good the food stamp nation for more people -- food stamps now than ever before I think it's fantastic that you have people like Sean O'Connell will come on here and and and and raise the flag about this issue and call attention to it. It's not the fault of the immigrants who come to this country why they're abusing the system it's not it's not the fault of the immigrants when they come here. The system that we've set up for them let's change the apostle to get a job and work and is likely to change this it. I'm saying you can't. Appoint somebody who who who comes in here illegally you can't -- -- -- -- -- hold on -- -- -- -- this is I -- this country is -- when they get -- they keep -- think this is so -- change we can't -- let's get rid of this -- welfare state. But don't don't blame it on and and if you wanna say let's let's let's joined forces in saying. No welfare eligibility of any kind for for immigrant gonna say that we can we can we can certainly fight trying to project -- look. Here what's -- let's get to what's -- the country just. I'm going to be honest with you so we have -- I'm going to be honest with you the problem my house. With -- -- -- conservatives like you. Is nominally just. But you work you do right for the Boston Globe that's that's sure coming back you to give the globe is on an elitist paper are you serious you're not you're kidding me now. -- used to define the parameters of the debate. Where you stand there and again first of all everybody at the rally was basically saying the system is screwed up that was the point to the route in a nutshell okay. So now you're backtracking -- and -- and directly from a system that I didn't sometime in the couple minutes so. Couple points. The welfare state has you know are we living in reality you are not living in reality is not going anywhere. You think the welfare State's gonna be repealed tomorrow Jeff it's not. So what is happening in reality. They're pouring across the border there's eleven to twenty million of them now. There -- 60000 album now there's going to be a 150000. Next year if -- if the border is not secure. And are they abusing our welfare system. Yes is it costing us two billion dollars a year yes. Are they aren't they scamming us on food stamps and EBP cards and getting free healthcare yes. Are we being asked to pay for it yes. Is the -- arable land lying when she says her cities being overrun by illegal immigrants know. Is the government of Chelsea lying when they say they can handle any more or Peabody. Or you can run down the list a whole world warrants no. And instead of actually confronting those that are invading our country. Taking advantage of our generosity trampling on our sovereignty. Do you stand there in your column on judging you by your call home by your own words. I'm the one that's unhinged. Not their regime that's allowing potential terrorists and MS thirteen gang bangers diseases. Tuberculosis. Scare is another story. Massive TB and chicken pox outbreak at a border facility. Now there's fear of the final -- a Swine Flu. -- on unhinged. But John Boehner wouldn't have to do with my position on this issue tonight in favor of terrorism. The -- favor a normal tuberculosis -- -- my -- -- -- -- what do you want to al-Qaeda and because the concert what you're saying is this. If you want to secure the border. As we said at the rally. You already -- He's talked about that. You can't secure border if what you -- -- by secure border you mean no one can get across without having to. -- got to be the Berlin Wall or some kind of a little wall built -- -- if you really believe that then you just don't understand how traffic between Brian -- -- And I don't understand -- -- and you have people cross the border the southern border legally every day. It's quite a bit 400000. People come across that border legally. It's hit two huge support how many people cross the border between Canada United States. I know what the number is Canada's our biggest trading partner okay wait how -- -- population up north of the border is much smaller and it doesn't matter how to the point is the trade is much bigger we can secure the border with Canada but we can't secure the border with Mexico. And you don't -- -- -- you know our secure I'll tell you -- order with candidate I'll tell you why because you guys don't want to secure the border. You don't get it Democrats don't want to secure the establishment Republicans once what are secure the border only tell you there presumably you say -- defense. Very simple I'll tell you I'll I'll give your answer. You talk about Ronald Reagan first of all -- to correct you on your fox number one. Ronald Reagan said that passing the 1986. Simpson is only act the amnesty for illegal immigrants. What's the greatest mistake of his presidency point one. Point two. And the Simpson is -- act where we were promised offense. We were promised extensive border security we're still waiting for that Jeff it's been thirty years. The Imus became the legalization game but defense in the border security never came. In the Simpson is only got based state. You build an extensive fence. You put military assets you put satellites you put sensors in other words you secure our porous southern border. If need be if you wanna be -- it hopefully what you do you do what Rick Perry did you call the National Guard to get accomplished what he accomplished my colleague at the National Guard well I'll play -- an accomplished read the Fox News report. -- not illegal immigrants taking a train called the beast right no longer going through taxes but they're not going through New Mexico. Because they now say we may be arrested by the National Guard. So in other words you can't secure the border it's. Are you telling me with a straight face and how are you telling me with a straight face that the world's leading superpower. Cannot secure its southern border. We can invading Iraq you you know we can invade Afghanistan. But we can't protect our own border if by secure. You mean. That nobody will ever be able to cross that border without our being able to prevent it. Then yes it's not possible to secure our reporter or any other border in the world. The east Germans tried to secure the border around the west Berlin. They couldn't even do that. People managed to get out they filed waste to get to freedom they found waste it take to get to safety if even at east from -- What ever disagreements we have we agree we don't want that kind of security on our border. North Koreans. The most beastly regime of the world today. The north Koreans can't keep people from crossing in and out of their border and I hope everybody into North Korea manages to get out. We're not gonna build. A level of security and barbed wire and electric fences and and machine gun nests. To the extent that would be possible to secure the border if that's what secured the border meets. On the other hand will rule on how come we did from nineteen point four in 1965. We didn't. We didn't do -- yes we did you why not follow -- productive people for all because people like you keep arguing for amnesty. What do you think is causing this current crisis. It's people like you championed open borders Barack Obama -- a -- go to -- let me tell you -- -- and pulled up. They're the ones -- if you get into the United States he'll get amnesty so what are the drug smugglers when the -- noticed they're saying hey give us 578101000. Dollars well smuggle you by the thousands up because once -- and you get amnesty so no amnesty. You crack down on employers who hire illegal aliens and illegal employees which by the way was in the Simpson is only -- never enforced. You would force the immigration laws of this country you build inexpensive fence you put troops on the border no you're right Jeff. Not every single illegal immigrant is gonna get stopped you're right. -- couple hundred may trickle through maybe a thousand but not twenty million. That's what your failing to understand. So let me ask you this point blank. Short people who entered this country illegally and break our laws should they be deported yes -- no I think the law should be changed. I think what makes people illegal. Ought to be. Reasons that our objective. We shouldn't say we have some arbitrary definition or arbitrary quota level you're one beyond that quoted -- for your illegal they're -- we don't want you. That's the system that I'm against that's a system that we have now that we've had. To some extent going back to 1920s certainly to the 1960s that the system that's broken now. That's a system that makes no rational that calculus about why people come to this country. The -- you're asking me that I'm against that. If you ask me should we have reasons for excluding illegal. Immigrants should there be reasons to say we don't want you and dare for your illegal. Yes that's a system that I want that's the system that we used to have in this country where if you belong to out a criminal organization that was a reason to exclude you so to say to me. Wait a magic wand Jeff and will make this is the way you wanted to be what I would say is. I want a country where the presumption is that if you come to America you wanna come into this country. The presumption is were -- but the presumption is you can come and on the assumption that you want to become a citizen eventually that you come -- to war. But you're coming here to become an American -- come eager to learn the language where they won't speak the language that you're not gonna be a public charge you're not gonna go on welfare that's -- system that I would favor. -- rattled in any event I understand I'm telling you I could wait awhile and Arnold changed the seldom are. Jack you can't go around and I don't listen Jeff I'm sorry but Jeff I have to cut off they'll tell you why. That's exactly what we were saying at the rally no it's not yet you were single and -- hold on I'm coaching you -- -- -- watching you tip send them home yes send yes that's not what I'm so hot for thought that you weren't there. I -- of watching hoping and video all you watch on video all Qatar has so you -- it's like if you weren't there so Melissa look here is the argument -- laid -- for you. You have illegal immigration system. You base it upon the national interest. On what we need how many unskilled workers no -- -- a skilled -- disagree with that with golf course and population as you believe the national interest but let -- go. And then you have people so well they how they. When you -- -- comment like you don't believe in and I was just how is Jeff Howard hit a rational argument Jeff how much opposed Jeff on to that Jeff how -- that not -- my motive Jeff I don't chat with a Nigel gave her five minutes give me fifty seconds I don't insult to the way you secure insulting me you -- I don't believe in the national interest. What did you think that to someone Jeff. I don't believe that applicant John we disagree about what actually two judges. There's -- saying in Eastern Europe need the job or he said before. If I write a column and I say this is what Jeff cooter says here's why he's wrong let me make an argument you say you would have no problem with that. And get usage or not would you say be polio when you say that because you don't believe in the national interest. Somebody supposed to take you seriously when you make an accusation like that against somebody who -- somebody's race Syracuse has been arguing in favor of the session -- just as he's he's it. Jeff are you finished. OK listen. There's an expression in Eastern Europe. Don't pee on my back and call it rained. Don't stand there and lecture me about tolerance and civil discourse. After you call me unhinged. You imply that everybody who went to that rally is basically the hairs of the nativist movement. Don't stand there an implied that were nativist and racist intolerant bigots which is what you did. New standards at all but just. Don't call you names our share. Just one irrational civil discourse. Listen look stopping -- How tough -- all you need I you're the one to throw spears you're the one that stands there and slanderous and -- bulls and then you stand there and act like the victim so look let's just -- Let's get the records another victim listen I -- let me get Jeff and I just -- in my -- if John dish it out -- ought to be able to jacket. I've given you five minutes give me fifty seconds also it right now. You have an illegal immigration system based on the national interest how many skilled workers how many unskilled workers. You have people come -- if they wanna be temporary workers we have a certain amount you have people pay their fees you have people Obey the law. You have them do what the right way. They get like I did they get their work reasons they get their green card. If they want to become citizens they have to learn the language and take a civics course and learn the constitution. In other words we taking people as many as we need that will strengthen the United States. In America's best interest it's not true it's not what we're doing I know that's not the existing system I know that. That's what we were calling for. -- fix the system fixed a border stop the invasion let me ask you can't stop there -- Jeff Jeff let me finish. Stop the invasion stop the constant use an exploitation. Of our welfare system. And get immigrants will come here to contribute and not to take. Now let me ask you this. Where in this argument. Does this have anything to do and don't auction the issue. With Henry Cabot watch. Or the know nothing party. Poor people not wanting the Irish coming in fleeing from the potato -- who came here to work. Raise their families and have jobs let me ask you this what is nativist about the argument I just need to you now nativist. Is standing there on Boston -- and without chants of send them home send them home send them all think illegal -- -- sent home made -- this is when there are reports of speed of of of some gang members coming across this flood of which this flood of minors and using that to paint. The entire universe of illegal migrants coming to to -- country steps its made -- they're not they're not significant MS thirteen gang members. A Texas Border Patrol first of all I have had. -- this is his Border Patrol every one coming to I want to thank everybody -- reliant you're making that up I never said that what I said is this first of all let me ask you this. I was about 60000 who came here is how many do you know where gang -- how many of them criminals I've no idea. I would suggest you Jewish or not -- don't you think we should won't. Again don't you think we should don't lesser -- I think criminal should be kept out I think people are you know regimes are allowing him allowing them to come across the border. I know. For -- a lot we anything unsecured radio studio having a discussion with you about what our policy should be. We've got tens of thousands of kids who have been coming the coming in north in the last last two years last DE you know eighteen months. Basically turning themselves in most of them are not crossing the border illegally it's I didn't think he's -- -- where you felt more like invasion you're too -- reaching for pejorative from our economy because Honduras and Guatemala and El Salvador. Are three of the five most deadly countries in the world in terms of of Mercury. Are. Horrible. Horrible living circumstances there and it doesn't surprise me that just as Irving Berlin and his family left ruts during the -- I just a starving I -- by the way Henry Cabot Lodge in the 1893 that's fifty years after the that the potato famine. Henry Cabot Lodge was talking about -- was talking about people like people from Croatia had people from Russia and people from actually know enough. Jobs then why is he was talking the Irish potato famine was in the eighteenth -- There were many Jeff -- there were many Irish were coming still in the 1880s and eighteen -- I would Henry Cabot -- was talking about in that speech that I quoted from which is a famous -- to go look it up I know that you studied American history he was -- he was pressing for a law that that that was gonna impose a literacy requirement that was that was the pretext in those days we -- against immigrants were just against immigrants who are illiterate and that was a big push that was -- excuse. Now that the pretext cannot bite my -- it's a pretext I don't again. I understand the people who say it. But our sincere I understand that they needed time I see it as a pretext to say. No it's not the word against immigration -- that we're against illegal immigration. So I say what I always said our immigration system is screwed up because we have. We make it virtually impossible for most people in the world who would want to come to America for all the right reasons that you and I are -- on all the reasons that we would want people -- -- we make it impossible for them to come to this country you say they should go to the back of the line for the vast majority of would be immigrants there's no possible wind to get into more than 70% of legal immigration and if you came here -- because -- the job William -- where you can turn on -- worked beside. If so you're the you're the exception -- the minority more than 70% of legal immigrants to this country. Come -- because they have family members already here and they qualify under the family reunification program family reunification is. -- the exception that swallowed our whole. -- immigration system consequently if you work in. Condors were here in the Philippines or -- in in Jamaica or Europe Russia or Europe China and you wake up one day and you think America's the land of opportunity I've got skills -- god -- I want to go to that country and make something of myself I -- I -- worked hard I want to be a great American because it's the greatest country in the world and you have no. Job that's already over here to deploy their only got a ticket for you you have no flatly here you have no option. There's no legal way under our current law are screwed up current immigration system our broken immigration system for you to come here. Most people they -- -- -- -- not gonna -- our class some pocket out of either desperation or a drive to six I hunger I got look column I gosh. Let and I want them to come to you. I'll tell you this right now I believe you should have an immigration system based on -- national interest I agree. But I think we disarm the -- none and I know you said you didn't just five minutes ago but let me ask you this is our -- and -- I think you're spinning your wheels I gotta tell you that I. I agree that we should have immigration -- based international Jeff I think I was 'cause I usually I don't know free hugs I've been the national interest this just thank you. Are right now listen look. You're telling me that just because somebody wants to come into the United States. Whether they're from magic well. Whether they're from so Adam. Whether they're from China whether they're from North Korea whether they're from Pakistan. If they just wanna come to America. And whether there are fleeing violence or poverty or one -- better make a lot better make a better life for themselves. Darn it very yearning to be free and we should let -- man. How many would you -- name. Because by your definition. If you that's open borders. By your definition how many would you -- and it's not -- for ten million know what you're saying is this you're saying that everybody has a right to know why did you come to the United States of America you're putting words in my -- -- -- -- -- -- to -- I said I want -- and Tim Jeff Jeff Jeff hold -- let me finish my point play that tape back I didn't say every one has a right to come here. Obviously every country. Has its own sovereign right to set the terms of who doesn't understand. Well don't distort my words not I don't see why why why why is this audience a nativist audience when we -- were -- and we have and we have a right to -- our own terms do we ever get to finish a point until we come to what to a bottom line. You're ahead you're telling me just because you just keep going on now so finish your point. How many how many a 1000002000003. Million common. I don't have a specific number we have ballpark figure you know these 5101520. -- would I want more people to come to this country who will make the country better who'll make their lives better cool -- -- something and at the and to the advantage of Americans that's got. Not open borders because they're all kinds of people I don't want to come and -- kind of I don't want criminals to comment I don't want violent people to comment I don't want people who are who belong -- radical Islamist organizations to come in. So how do you stop them from coming in Jeff you have borders that work if you have a Border Patrol let's focus. It's not my thing. You secure a reporter Jeff. Again. All of eighteen Murray had to fight her her reared Annan and all alone. All of your -- all OK okay just so now we agree that we made mostly just kind of argument. Jeff Jeff. Okay Jeff is really quite good is that really rational discussion. Just. Jeff if you set it up just license -- to the galleries and I realize Jenna I'm writing for people who listen who read opinion pages. And we're on the air and you're talking to people who listen to the radiology centers to better than people who read you know what I'm saying that I don't sit Mike Todd right. Michael low. I got through the one that's been going voyage -- for the last fifteen minutes you're unbelievable. Moment -- unbelievable. He's pandering that's smug arrogant patronizing attitude of viewers I -- call you well over and over again when you start when you start getting you're not rolling -- I don't -- -- -- -- -- you're just -- -- I thought they hijack an argument I don't and you I would only tell that things are I'm always helps you Jeff I don't tell you how to talk. I don't tell you how to express yourself. I don't tell you how to write your column. So don't tell me how to talk or how to express my -- hear the 31 thing you didn't start reading the column of them and then that these are British I -- knowing what my own words mean I call you out of your own column. Did the they that you don't tell me how to -- Michael grow up at all costs for you for an apology. Which -- given of course not of course because you insulted me and you insulted the listeners so let it go so hold up. You know -- agree we do need a secure port I always said we need and all twenty minutes ago even though twenty minutes ago -- -- let you talk for three formats so wait three or four minutes I'll give your turn out. You said. Twenty minutes ago you can't secure reporter. North Korea can secure its border. He's Germany couldn't secure it's more by your definition. Of what's my definition that no one can get in order to get out we know I remember these -- well I think I said you do what you can to secure the border should you don't have 60000 people being dumped across the border a couple of months -- understand that. Or maybe eleven to twenty million people -- more illegal -- again just six what is out there. People just across the border cost 60000 people are turning themselves into Portland or why -- there. Why are they don't tell you I had acknowledged the point that Jack -- Jack acknowledged the point out if they can't just say I'm turning myself Asia look honestly yeah. Isn't the border hasn't been secured because 60000 people came in. They came there was the security they turned themselves into the security. -- Our Jim -- hit my little police station and I turned myself in the front desk previously well we secured the police station anybody can come in Jeff. Listen to listen to yourself listen you're safe and secure the border and because we have 60000 beat Jeff. They're not crossing the border Italian -- eighteen -- Communist odds of the business community. Stop I know you're squirming because I'm calling you out if so do me a favor. Wait three minutes I keep giving you 45 minute chunks. I've been more than a polite host shall wait three minutes why are they -- themselves over to the Border Patrol -- Because they've been told by the legal case that Obama. And the open borders Republican establishment like John McCain. And like Jeff Jacoby with the -- wanna admit it or not are basically said hole if you're some kind of a potential migrant. You're gonna get amnesty. We're not gonna -- porch you. So that's why they're handing themselves over because we're not in forcing our borders and we're not enforcing our immigration laws -- why they're coming in. And they're coming in mice by the tens of thousands. And they're being dumped in our communities in refugee centers and in our towns all over the country. And many of them are gonna be eligible and they're gonna apply for welfare benefits that we can't afford that's an invasion. These are people who are not welcome in this country who have no business being in this country there even legal. By definition that means criminals. That's why we usually all we are being sold pejorative no -- -- the very definition of an invasion. So he would admit that we need to secure our border I'm happy at least we agree on but I hope that's not nativist now let's get to the heart of the matter. Do you say that well if somebody wants to come and just war could potentially work in this country we should allow them to come on and and if it's a million or two million or three million or four million or ten million and my argument she was a very simple one. When you have this kind of masks -- illegal immigration. You are flooding. The markets of this country. Wages are gonna be driven down. You're hurting the working and middle class of this country. Every nation has the right to determine how many people can enter and on what basis. And my question to you was this. Canada secures its border. China secures its border. Britain David Cameron is here nativist. She now says that he wants to cut benefits to both legal immigrants and he wants to -- stem the tide of illegal immigration. Every country in the world believes they should secure their border. We aren't the only nation in the world at this moment. Whereby our border is wide open. Do you break -- law. You violated our law. You come here illegally. Many of them who come here illegally are gang bangers. Many of them are -- only criminals 8000 sexual -- 3000 murders in Texas alone. I ask Matthew -- -- mother. About her -- -- -- run over by a drunken illegal immigrant. Whether that's not an invasion. And this is happening in city after city town after town our schools are overcrowded. Our emergency rooms are the breaking point nobody can take in this many people. You commit identity fraud when you coming here illegally besides violating our citizenship laws. If you're a criminal. Why should it should be deported. I don't get it down the reason why you came into this country and I'll give you a specific example. You talk about Irving Berlin. When we talk you about my grandfather. My grandfather. Was one of the leaders of the Croatian peasant party look it up. It was a pro democracy. Pacifist party. She was both anti Nazi and anti Communist. For eighteen months. He was what -- Nazi concentration camp because my family has a history of housing and sheltering Jews. And he was almost killed and that Nazi concentration camp and then in 1944 life. When the west was rightly celebrated a great victory against at all -- for. The people of Eastern Europe faced the red locus of the red army. And they knew my grandfather was a Smart man. And they knew that he was a small. And so they around him and my entire family up in -- Communist concentration camp and for three years. They wiped out my entire family in fact his brother who was a priest they hung on from piano wire in a church. And they said -- and the pain if you allow us to carve a red star on your forehead and renounced Jesus Christ and he wouldn't and died a painful death. When it was announced in December 71941. The United States was attacked and then two days later Hitler declared war my grandfather. Went on his knees and the only time in his entire life he cry right he cried. Because he said we will be free. Because America will enter the war. One thing my grandfather wanted above all else. We're still be an American. Because after 1948 when he free -- when he got rid of that who left the Communist concentration camp he was gonna die so we took. My grandmother he took my father he took my uncles and he fled and spent two years and it DP camp in Germany. America was not taking immigrants. For Eastern Europe at that time. My grandfather looked my grandfather pleaded my grandfather went to the plate consulate in Germany. And went on his hands and knees and begged to come into the United States. So what did he do. Canada was taking immigrants Australia was sticking immigrants. Then China has fallen to -- and the red revolution. Australia there was two post Communist China he went to the next best thing he went to Canada. He didn't come here and -- a consultant in the night. He didn't -- you know how hard my grandfather worked. She never talk a welfare benefit ID in his wife. -- how hard my father worked in a factory. Greasing up his family breaking his back. They learn the language they assimilated. And there are grateful to Canada. Didn't sneak across the border. My grandfather can sneak across the border. So don't stand there and lecture me. About immigrants around the world -- coming into the United States -- I'm not finished. Coming and around the world and somehow the United States has an obligation. To take a moment they don't. They don't. Now my grandfather all paid this country's loss I admire you greatly. My father obeyed this country's laws admiring him gratefully. Od standing on the shoulders of my grandfather and my father or -- this country's laws. And came in here legally. Chopping through every hoop after hoop after hoop and now and I'll use this word in eagle and you call me unhinged panel plus Q again. These gangsters. -- on Capitol Hill. Who are running this country into the ground to the greatest republic in the history of the world. Now wanna give potential amnesty and executive amnesty. To five to six million illegal immigrants. And you have the likes of John McCain saying eleven to twenty million who came here illegally should be put -- -- quote path to citizenship. Are you serious. And then for you. Tell how book call. How often mirror. Sitting in your chair in front of your laptop computer not even having that they -- decency and integrity to -- and yet the rally itself. Do you stand there. And you'll write a piece. Calling me unhinged for speaking the truth. Comparing us to some of the worst impulses. Some of the most intolerant behavior of the nineteenth century. Because they're decent people of this state. Are saying no more. -- the breaking point. Respect this country's laws respected citizen ships respecting sovereignty. Respect its constitution. Deport every single one of them home and get to the back of the line like everybody else around the world. Let me ask you something do you honestly think -- -- You think you can look into the hearts and minds and souls everybody who attended that rally. And you can say nativist. And wink wink re assessed -- will be crazy. You know why you were captured and I don't know ranch on you but I'm telling you your face shame on you. And while you were speaking about your grandfather. I felt that we were getting to the real heart of what drives you on this issue. And for just a moment they're I saw you speaking with. Speaking. From deep love and speaking from the heart. After just a moment there there was something really. Admirable. In the way you were telling the story. Powerful story of what your grandfather. I wish I could have known him like I wish this country had had its doors open so we -- come here. Let me ask you. Are you approach of the people. In America can rate the policy that kept her grandfather route. With America right to say. That your grandfather who was a small. We set a sensible policy. I'll answer your question was hit I'll I'll I'll give you my grandfather's encirclement of what are your into all of if you because my answer is his answer. I asked -- this one year before he died. Did you ever resent America for saying no nobody told me never. But I'm asking you I'm telling you I'm giving you the -- -- and I'll tell you I'll give you his answer I want I want you and I'll give you his answer you did I hear I hear his answer his answer was no original why does that answer was -- Because America has the right to decide its own destiny sure -- does agreed. I had agreed so don't tell me that I don't think America has the right to decide its own destiny it does so well now we deport all these illegal alien act. I want you to answer my question I'm answering question my question is. Do you think America had the right policy when it wouldn't make it possible for someone like your grandfather to Communists. Okay that's what we disagree I'll tell you why that's -- fun and I'll tell you why and I'll tell you why because by the early 1920s. There was so much man. The country was being overwhelmed. And so they made a decision. Because you have people speaking all kinds of different languages and all these massive swelling urban areas. That we're losing our identity and our common culture and our common values its common sense no country can take in an unlimited amount of people. What you're talking about social engineering. And so in 1924. They passed the law. And restricted immigration considerably and it worked you can secure the border if you want to secure it. And what happened. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- For the next thirty -- forty some years to was the release had just come from piano wire that was brother polishing his front and connect. So my point do you is it worked. And what happened during those forty years let's look at 1924 in 1965. All of these immigrants were assimilated. All home. We became one nation one people. Under dogs. Never where we are greater power than -- and prosperity that from 1925. To 1965. Never worry more united. That was when we came together is in -- depression and that Sherry really never was a greater prosperity we talking about the 1950s. She said 1925. I like 96 he might award ever wanted is greater just bury the Great Depression Jeff Jeff Jeff. You have a -- in American history Jeff Jeff you have the 1920s just please don't -- these little academically is do my -- that. -- -- from ninety Jeff okay listen listen Jeff Jeff Jeff Jeff up. -- Did America and not emerge after World War II as the greatest superpower in the history of the world yes shall be talking about. -- the greatest economic superpower and history of the world. Yes pose the greatest military superpower in the world yes. So frankly shut up you know what you're talking about current mongers telling -- that's an understanding -- and arrogant earliest movement it was a Great Depression -- You said from 1991. Four to 1965. Jury that -- America emerged as the greatest economic military geopolitical superpower in the history of the world. We were never more united. We watched the same TV shows. We read basically the same literature. We celebrated the same holidays. We Revere the same heroes we had the same national myths. We had a thriving booming middle and working class after 1945. From nineteen point four in 1929. -- specific. He worked. Now this is what a normal country does it's called nation state 101 but let me finish -- a normal country but it's and I. I did state. I've ever been a nor -- and divided country now -- to the United States has always been a different country really other countries don't have a First Amendment. Is that an argument prost got it got dark and analog hole world to come out if there's ever -- and in other countries based her whole reason for existence on on on bludgeoned tribes and soil. Is that was is that the American idea that's never been the American idea. I understand the argument that you're making no it's based on a common culture and a common language is the senate long and pretty nativist argument. And I -- -- many -- Okay. My what are people what is big -- it I didn't think it was good to the dictionary here for a look at the word. Look at the word big races -- -- -- -- native look up the word nativist. Let's go c'mon let's. Let's let's look up the word nativist. Thank you studied American history yeah are held at Jefferson plus spare me sanctimonious little hot shots you know I don't speak to you that -- one. Point is between going all. Jeff I thought she studied American history. Spamming your sanctimonious cheap shot yes if your being sanctimonious frankly being a jerk. I'm telling -- your face I did speak American history I did teach American history if I'm wrong rebut me. We don't stand there with this sort of arrogant smug attitude all Jeff -- thought she taught American history. Go ahead what's your point. What's your point. The column that I wrote I I'm wondering if you average the other -- and erode. But any other company Britain but the column that you did that provoked you since I guess it's one that mentioned your name. Quotes Henry Cabot Lodge sank. If we have any regard for the welfare the wages or the standard of life of American working man we should take immediate steps to restrict foreign immigration. There's an appalling danger to the American wage -- from the flood of low. Unskilled ignorant foreign labor which is poured into the country. Jurors sitting here now. Having it. Having blasted me for linking to this that the views that you expressed on beat on on. The Boston Common to Henry Cabot Lodge. When you just five minutes ago said. More to keep people locked he'll work to close the doors in the 1920s because no country can taken everybody it's gonna hurt the economy -- By -- of restricting immigration by not letting people when we make this country powerful we make this country strong religious country prosperous. I don't see how you can have it both ways. The argument made by lodge in the 1890s made by Benjamin Franklin had a 7050s. Made by the people in the 1920s and made by Jeff cornered today. Are more or less not precise in every detail but moral less the same argument we need to have its strict control the number of people come again. There are economic consequences if we don't we can't just say hey we're America the land of the free there for people who wanna be free to have -- up -- which have the presumption that we want them to come. It's -- well. Expressed. Frequent Li reiterated position in American history it's called nativist and many honorable people up hold that point of view. It's not an insult to use the term. It's simply a historical just -- -- -- it's not one that I jacare just. My name is them as hard as though Georgia federal Jeffrey your grandfather and for your group for your for your great uncle I'm I'm I I think it's terrible that this country did. Allow more people and when they were trying to -- even not decent trying to flee. The Communist Jeff. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Not your sure all I'm here to debate your column now look. If you wanna get into it I'll get into it with few. Do you think that it was wrong of Benjamin Franklin and a founding fathers to basically say for a while stopping immigration from Germany why did they say that you have. Because in Pennsylvania that declaration of independence as you well know. How to be read out in both English and German because there were so only many German immigrants right and they said if we don't stop this massive influx of German immigrants we're gonna become a bilingual bi cultural country. So they said we need to stop the flow assimilate these German immigrants. How come learn English how the -- -- to the United States and then you allow another way friend but they didn't stop the -- always certainly curtailed it's our guarantee that Franklin wanted to he was pouring it on and off -- significantly -- that it was 1750 shall we didn't know what we know now no no I mean after -- in it afterwards just no question about it and then resumed again the 1820s. My point is this. Normal countries around the world know what I mean by normal these countries that put their people's interest first. That put their sovereignty first. Don't just allow as many people to come in unlimited waves of immigration. You take as many as you can for your national interest and then you assimilate them. We are neither assimilating them I agree we are neither assimilating them which is bad we are neither teaching them English. We are giving them many welfare benefits they have no business getting which means they're abusing our system they're bankrupting our country. Look I'll tell you the fundamental difference and you can't beat you can argue this all you want. The difference between today and the nineteenth century. Then we were melting pot today we have multicultural ism. Then we didn't have a welfare state today we have a vast expansive welfare state. So we have millions of immigrants coming in who fly the Mexican flag. Who refused to speak English. You call -- DirecTV. It started at about -- this press -- you go to ATM machines you see Spanish everywhere past -- negativism. Past patriotism one on one. Without a common language we become the power of -- -- We become like the Balkans. Now you're are you -- argument that you make in your piece. He's the argument made by a lot of us some. It is the argument made by liberals and progressives. That people who holds -- Obama's push for amnesty. People who oppose this massive influx of 60000. Illegal immigrants unaccompanied minors. Many of them teenagers and contrary to what you said as the Maryland said many of them are 20/20 224. They lie and say they're seventeen and that somehow were native discs. That's somehow weren't whole rent. That somehow we don't watch your kind here. Held up to the venezuelans that I spoke to after the rally with those from the Dominican Republic. Or those that came from Mexico who told me Jeff we did -- the right way we did it legally. And we came here to work. We came here for -- we're not on EBT were not on -- were not on section eight housing not getting free healthcare. And you have the goal. Just stand there and smear all of us. For wanting to have simple border security. Okay are you kidding me. My turn to -- okay. Every now and then we keep edging up to a position where we are actually in agreement. And then you insist on -- to get into it. That's a slap back at me so when we try. -- even very generous but -- become of the air I didn't. And been debating for more than our haven't even gone to a commercial break I know how how valuable that is and and radio. I've never said anyone who want to come to America can come to America. I would never say this country shouldn't have policies that advance its national interest. I don't believe that there's some such thing as a right to go to America. Of course I believe that the United States like every other sovereign country has the right to set its own terms. At the same time. I do you say. You can't blame people who wanna come to America for the screwed up system that we've created here and that they find when they get here. I agree with you. I don't want people going on -- key cards and and and food stamps and welfare and section eight housing get all the rest of it I certainly don't want that to be the reason anybody comes to this country. I don't think that is the reason that most people do come to this country. As you would take let that go. What I really want to let go is the welfare system that we've got here that's what we should get fixed. I don't wanna go back to the restriction eased immigration policies of the 1920s when people like your grandfather could come and when I go back to the welfare system that we had what was basically. And nonexistent. So that you can do this country it was understood you want it to be a public charge. That was written into the law that was insisted on -- proved to be -- public charge you got sent back. I don't want. Welfare dependency I don't want criminals I don't want disease spreading I don't want any of those things and every country has. Do you the most logical right and reason the world to -- to do what it can't keep that coming into the country. I also don't want the politically correct multi cultural notion that says that every other culture in the world is as good or better than the American culture. I don't want them immigrants come into this country and flying their native flag. As opposed to find the American flag. I think that the americanization policies that might other bond when he came to this country. That's exactly what ought to be. Might get into this country in 1948. Having lost virtually the entire. Gambling and -- in the Nazi holocaust and then his native country Czechoslovakia went Communists he managed to get out he -- to get here on a student visa. And what he came to this country I grew up in Cleveland the city filled with immigrants from Eastern Europe. And they formed a new American society and they would get together every weekend these new immigrants from Eastern Europe. Learning English mostly so they can practice speaking English with each other. I've written column saying. Well what what I wrote that column saying that Gabriel Gomez was wrong for launching his campaign for the send it in Spanish. Did that make me a phony conservative. Was like being to elaborate. Cling to -- to it to might Boston Globe liberal masters when I was doing that. When I've written column after column making the argument that the politically correct to multi cultural worm that's eating the -- this country. Is the real cause of this immigration crisis not the immigrants who want to come here for the right reasons is that being a Judas. I want people to come to this country to become good Americans I want people who want to be American citizens who want to contribute to the country who want to. Reproductive who wanna raise their children to value liberty and freedom and justice for all. Texas system that I want to hear that's the country don't want those of the kind of immigrants and I want I want a system in this country. Encourages that. So why don't we make instead of instead of fighting with each other instead of being called the -- -- court you would say instead of call you when -- why don't we make common cause in. Rooting out the police in that here instead of blaming the people who come into this country. Let's agree that it's not it's not immigrants that caused the welfare problem pitched -- welfare problem that debt. That we cause which is doing the damage let's fix the yet. Don't blame people who want to see America remains a haven for the free. We disagree on whether it was a good idea or bad idea for there to be slammed gates that wouldn't like your grandfather -- how would your grandfather -- -- he sounds like he would've been a tremendous addition to this country. For most people in the world today who would like to come here for all the right reasons they -- and obviously the overwhelming overwhelming majority. Don't they do what your grandfather did they make other arrangements or do something else what their life. I have to say I do feel a sneaking admiration for people like boat people from Cuba. Start from Haiti twenty years ago I go to counseling let the Haitians in that's when Clinton was in the White House and Iraq Haitian boat people flee violence and eighty. And quit listening to Coast Guard out to push them back to send them and I wanted to know back then. Why these are people risking their lives to the American. Is that exactly the kind of people that we want Benjamin Franklin and 1753. Didn't know how who was gonna turn out. He didn't realize that this country has an enormous capacity to assimilate into absorb -- to make. Before mister Wyndham. By a unified. Pro freedom pro democracy nation out of the despair. But. Diversity of people from all over the world. So I don't play Benjamin Franklin for not -- like the Pennsylvania was gonna turn out just fine. And maybe even in the 1840s when there were a million Irish coming in here that you maybe even then they didn't realize. The Irish -- -- end -- doing just fine there to assimilate and become part of this country. But we know now when 2014 what's possible. Let's remove the what removed from our system to change the law fix what's destroying yet. Take out the part that's erupting gets and that we put on people that we really would like to have come here so that's my story. I don't -- I'm bridled open immigration and I don't think anyone who want to come to the country can come to the country kind against crime and I'm against. Welfare dependency and I'm against disease and I'm against gangs. I'm also by the way against telling people. Who are facing -- then who who was lights are terrible danger ten countries at the moment like Honduras or Guatemala or what's upon -- in Croatia or like my father in India in Czechoslovakia. I'd also gets a policy that says that if you have some way of being able to get to this country we're gonna keep you out because we have an arbitrary quota. We -- a reasonable disagreement about that if I take one -- that issue would you take the other side but doesn't make me a Judas. I won't say I don't feel good when I see him. Thousands of Americans standing on on beacon street the steps of the state house yelling send them home send them home send them home. And I also don't like it when. I hear all these people say it's not in the consumer objected to only illegal immigrants what part of illegal don't you understand. What I understand is that right now for most of people who come in here as illegal immigrants nevermind. That the current crisis on the border but by and large people who come here is illegal immigrants are not coming. Because they hate America the coming to because they see opportunity in America and we should fix our immigration system so that it's possible for those people to be able to come. I wish your grandfather could've could've been an American. I -- I disagree with the policy that kept him out. I disagree with the policy that kept. Millions of people in in Europe during World War II from having even option a finding safe haven this country I disagree with the policy when Franklin Roosevelt was in the White House concerning the SS Saint -- back to Europe so that people could come to this country was it was America too crowded and to take anybody in. Was it really more important to. Glad you're to have -- did -- but everybody speaking English at the same time rather than let people go to Nazi death camps. But that's not my vision of America but again. That's that's -- contained disagreement. What's not contained is to say these are the laws that exist out there for let's Obey the law therefore nothing should change. I believe in the national interest I want to advance the national interest just is I don't think the national interest was advanced by having. The fugitive slave law in this country which made it illegal to have the underground railroad consult a runaway -- you comparing you know I'm making a historical and now and I'm not comparing unbelievable. I'm making a point Jeff. Don't come on you're just what you would do to your students when you -- teaching them if they made analogies of different points in history. Would you say are you comparing its -- elegy but just as the Republican Party was born in the fight against slavery. Just as. -- -- just is a majority of Republicans voted for the Civil Rights Act because the existing laws were wrong and needed to be changed. By the same token I'm saying our system now. Our system which says that the overwhelming majority of people who wanna come to this country have no option to do so. 75% of America of immigrants who come here legally can only do so that's part of the family reunification. We have multiculturalism. We have every possible languages is taught the public schools we have easy access to those of the laws we have now. I think those laws need to be changed heightened those laws are the ones that are doing the damage I don't think that the damages because the people -- come to America for the right reasons and mighty attitude is if you want to come to America for the right reason. I want you to be able to come. Kind of speech. How can you kind of what I think ten minutes so let me just take a couple minutes and then we'll we'll wrap it up thank you. OK number one. Comparing our immigration laws -- somehow the fugitive slave octopus somehow because I know what you're basically saying is this is La Raza I was -- winds blow. Our broken fish and Jeff. What is it with -- I give you ten minutes. Can't you just be quiet and let me finish for two minutes I could not insecure. Really argue that it is secure your position I guarantee last year so why do you winds -- cutting me audits and deliberately. Or what -- -- -- you actually incredible what you want to do this and Jeff. Stop with your game with your cheap shots at your insult your being rude. Now let me finish for two minutes you cut -- and give me too. So. You're making low -- argument. Which is that our immigration laws or even moral and unlawful. And that's why people should protest it by ignoring the law. That's that's the argument you're making. And I think it's frankly despicable that you compare our current immigration laws to the fugitive slave act nobody's talking about slavery. Nobody's talking about Jim -- nobody is talking about obviously I'm just the moral loss. We're talking about the existing laws of this country regarding immigration. And frankly they're not bad parent. If we actually he sees this is what you don't get we don't have an immigration problem we don't. We have a lawless problem. Because the ruling class in Washington DC. Whether -- be the Wall Street Journal Republicans the open borders Republicans or the Liberal Democrats. The chamber of commerce wants cheap labor with -- you want to admit it or not. That's why they don't want to enforce the border and the Democrats are importing votes because -- overwhelming majority of Hispanics vote for the Democratic Party. So you I think collusion between both parties. That's why the American people for the last twenty years if you want to talk about agreement there's one thing we agree on. Seal the border. Crack down and secure the border. And then we can discuss how you -- illegals what you do what -- once they're here everything that is on the table. But why does nobody want to do it it's been over twenty years. Because both parties have a vested interest in not doing it. So employers are not Simpson is only don't hire illegal aliens are not ignore -- not obeying the law. Secure the border are not obeying the law. So we don't have. A broken immigration system we don't. We have been lawless situation. Whereby we're not enforcing the border we're not we're not enforcing our immigration -- us. Now -- the ultimate point. And this -- needs the ultimate point. When you stand very telling me I have a problem. With thousands of people at the steps of the state house by the way exercising their First Amendment democratically elected rights. To speak out about what they're seeing every day. And their towns cities neighborhoods and communities. -- you're denying the extent of the violent criminals and gangs and the disease and the strain on our social resources. Poor standing there and saying deep port every single one of them. I somehow. These troubles and he decent showing hall rent this is. -- made Amazon -- don't like it it's unhinged. You wrote a column. Attacking them. You look column attacking and -- characterizing the route you didn't. You wrote a column taking a nasty cheap shot at me if you did. And you come here now it's been what over an hour. And you keep claiming you're the victim. What are supposed to lay down now allow you to mischaracterize the rally. I'm supposed to lay down -- allow you to smear the good name and motives in reputation is that people showed up at that rally. The people who showed up at that rally. Work hard working taxpaying. Law abiding Americans. There are not racist scum. They're not native is scum. They're not crazy they're not unhinged. And what they're saying to you who. To the media and political elites of this country who have turned a blind eye to this problem now for the last 25 years. He's we've had it. We can't take anymore. We can't. And we want to rule of law reestablished in this country. Now you tell me hall but most of them come here to work and to contribute he doesn't matter that's not the issue. I want to world peace. It's not gonna happen. We have a welfare system they're abusing it we have multicultural is on its balkanized and us. They are in this country and they shouldn't be here because they're criminals and illegals. That's the point. You wanna solve this issue it's very simple. Secure. The border. I tell every illegal alien who did what I didn't do. Which is break the laws of this country get to the back of the line because I got news for you. There are real refugees' -- real force. Any rock and Afghanistan. And Syria and Nigeria and I could go on. Who are waiting in line to come in this country legally and lawfully. So why should somebody who jumps the line who violates our laws violates our sovereignty why should they be given preference. Why should now baby give -- some kind of amnesty or legalized status. Now rather than dealing with facts you chose to make spurious. Ad hominem. And frankly misleading parallels. Two different anti immigration movement in the past and you impugn the motives of this audience of the people at the rally and have me. And I'm telling you what you wanna admit it or not. Shame -- you. But I thank you for coming in Jeff let's just agree to disagree we agree on some points we disagree on others. Listen my friends I gotta go we've been talking to Jeff Jacoby. Columnist at the Boston Globe. All what get your reaction. What did you make of the debate 6172666868. All of your calls next news at the top and bottom talking between.