Jan 5, 2014|
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Then okay. Welcome to -- turned radio I'm Jon coherent and I'm having team and you're listening to new England's foremost addiction and mental health program. We got a great show tonight -- we're going to be talking about addiction. From the perspective of of the recovering. And so what do addicts know and what to do learn in the recovery process and how thin. So called normal people who benefit from that the that normal people we have two great guests tonight we have Christopher law Kennedy law offered. Who's on the show tonight and later on will be hearing from intervention is David Lee. But first Christopher Kennedy laughter is the author of three New York Times bestselling books on addiction. He works with the United Nations the comedian senator on substance abuse. The white house office on drug control policy and the World Health Organization. His new book is called what addicts note and lessons from the recovered from recovery to benefit everyone welcome Christopher to return radio. -- -- -- Oh really excited about this show because them. Because I really think about this was -- you have this perspective that. People who are in recovery has so I have learned something in the can share and -- -- and I were talking for the show about how nice it is. Instead of saying oh those poor people who have drug addiction it's like hey we have something to give back in show so thank you for maintenance that. Well I appreciate that I like. Hamlet where my my uncle present and -- candidate. You know he was sick a lot and then in his life and overcame a lot of physical issues. And he's says -- spent a lot of time reading books and he -- Up books about you know why biographies autobiographies about people who achieve great things in the world and he. The they are dynamic wrong topic came Birmingham was that for anybody who achieved something great you can look at their history. And they -- they've overcome -- opera style. And you know that and that's what gives them McGraw because that's what gives them. C -- they've agreed to. Perseverance. To achieve. And we have you know in this world we have millions in movies of people were in recovery. Who have. Don't -- -- one of the most difficult. Issues. Physically financially to deal. And we marginalize them -- -- we don't think of anything really to offer us. And and my experience is that not true. People know that are in recovery are amazing people who have great life lessons in great. Experience. -- the rest of the world can be very helpful. So this is kind of your profiles in courage. -- that an interest in what they're putting -- I mean I I never actually thought about that but but. But it did not it's not it's not set up that way in terms of the book. Of the book is obviously sub with it's and lessons but there are. A number of people on here who were enormously courageous -- first of all. A breaking their anonymity and talking about them there allies in terms of their recoveries sub is there it is -- player profile. So what do recovering addicts know that can benefit of the people. Well there there are a lot of things I mean I think. You know if it you know you've got what -- I mean there's there's a lot of there's a lot since basically that. That that I you know idea what in terms of the chapters of the book. And there you know that they're -- it is so you. Quickly all of you know I think the first. One -- war and you know often aren't. People are not compelled really do. The self examination or quite frankly able to do this self examination. All that is is Israel really. I useful thing in terms. Not only finding out finding ourselves that and realizing your power in terms of what how do you -- the world. People who are battered and themselves in my experience. A greater capacity to. Influence people to motivate people to accomplish. Pop up because there are connected to the power. Well now. On and then you know like a week because disgusted and accepting personal responsibility. My UN keep rates so I mean so I mean I think I think when I I wanted to point out here is that. That you are really taking things that you I mean from looking at the book. You really taking things that you feel you know EEU worked that you feel so -- very I mean we carry for very long time. And there's some real things that people. Who worked as hard as long -- you have. Have dealt have have come and have come up or cry slate you really is that you have to and I like I like some of these especially. You know finding out who you are you know and who you ought to be who you want to be had -- and violate -- how to engage in the world. And you know and but I -- my favorite one was you know realigning your relationships but then. Exercise vigilance and I think that is one of the things that. People in -- and human beings get. Lazy -- -- ran that kind of every day I need to be semi conscious of how I am. And in some in -- -- -- in recovery to stay so -- it to be the person human being. But it's that skill set Christopher that. That so many of us in recovery. Learn about that that daily maintenance and vigilance can you talk a little more about the. Yeah I mean or let it really let's be clear about this to -- a personal most of these principles. And one former another. Are coming out of tossed -- -- -- written here. And so that this -- sort of repackaging what a lot of people melt from twelve step programs and other war. It is something that may be palatable and -- adjustable by the general public the purpose of this book strictly as as a tool. To influence and and accentuate my advocate in terms of dealing with stigma and discrimination. That that is not a major barriers that prevent. Reintegration for a lot of people. I'm real real discrimination and real state. I keep people in the shadows. Keep people punitive. Lee you know by society punishes them for. -- things that are up for her basically and I don't know and it's not it's not okay it's not right and it's not useful to society so that's the purpose. In the book but you know. Most that this thing about it this is very difficult to do. Things is enormously difficult and most people won't do them what their licenses -- -- say that that is the sentence that John says the rate before you get about in the air. -- -- you guys now yes you know you guys know that if if our if my. My ass wasn't gonna fall off I would -- and and so. People who are just kind of kind of miserable and their allies are thus not really working to engage in this kind of self examination in this kind of vigilance every day daily -- all that that is a lot. I mean human beings are fundamentally most of us are pretty lazy. Ass. And what your addicts are not so this is not an easy thing to do is if somebody can look at this book and get on the inspiration promised to do something. It will be helpful I guarantee you there's nothing in this book that if you do that it will. Help you your life. So have you gotten any feedback from from the the the readers of the book where people say you know why. Why should I look towards recovering addict who's a week morally weak person. And as for lake life hints on how to be successful and happy in my life to have people come -- Fortunately I don't have anybody that would make that's yeah. If they what an awful lot of that I'm that ignorant and and now -- which brings. We think -- number of Fuller realign your relationships with. That's exactly right. I'm so so yeah so I hear it yeah I have I have not run across if I can run across that the answer that as. I'm Ripa book and -- yeah. -- look at me look at my life I think and so we're 28 years. And alt alt -- go all adults have a -- review in terms of up. You know all morality. And a lot of the other stuff that people might have issues where in terms of people. They use and abuse substances work behaviors. And we'll see we'll see what -- it's just all. And it can you talk to somebody. And and and tell them you know -- can you explain to our listening audience. How does being of service to others possibly make you a better person or more. Serene person. Well yeah I I I think I the vocabulary is important here being a service. Feels good. Because let me just say sorry I I am if somebody -- -- -- called in there -- crisis. I would relish that all -- not because. I feel like I'm a better person for doing -- -- because I feel like I should do it but because in the act opening another human being. You tap into something I believe it is spiritual energy that we all. That makes sense -- Mother Teresa said -- yesterday to all suffered from. The paparazzi and prices that -- and everything else that you -- always its servers because of the way it made her feel. That the thing people don't understand it at all gotta gotta be -- Alberto. That way and you can get into relationship whether you know caught up and relationships where you feel like you're being services. Somebody who's demanding. Who's where there's toxicity involved that's. But not -- That's not service Christopher. We're gonna take a short break for commercial we're gonna come right back to the Christopher love for -- Kennedy -- offered. You listen to -- through and radio -- WRKO six medium will be back right after the break. Welcome back I'm happy being here with John fund and then you listen to -- ten radio. And I guess name is Christopher can you laugh for your times bestselling author. And his new book what -- -- ten lessons from recovery to ten from recovery to benefit everyone. I won -- two we're just document spirituality and I want to know in your introduction year document rated sentence we refer to. You're you say that it diction is -- how is that so how assess. Well I think -- because. Really it is the way Aaron has that it brings and the the white I mean this is that they -- I got I got I found my way to recovery and I and I basically balance a community. -- like minded people who were who were interest data and transformation. Self transformation and they get that in -- -- did that with these principles basically and and so anybody's. Cap and find in twelve step rooms all over the world and -- not that not a spiritual community engaged and and self transformation. Rule. They're the kind of things that we talked about practically service spirituality. That the responsibility. Turning pain into growth I mean I can't. You know one against. Is it and that is embodied in and that's what which is basically turning. Op pain in the -- of most people in our society runs from. Think the void of their perspective in recovery is. Pain as the tops on the spiritual growth and everything that that in my life that has been great. I came out enormous -- So it is that it's it's a way that would make sense of saying. You know way to view where you are -- -- -- you know you have to sell -- with shopping cart technology here drugs and alcohol or behavioral. You know I -- you can you view in day out it's not easy to do. This is really not easy to. It's set. Up. So I don't want I don't give the impression that this you know quick -- available any anybody act easily. But it is available is available for anybody if you're willing to. You know. What sweat equity and. So we've had other public figures our show and and we've asked them a similar question what role manager. Family's name and status play in your addiction and what role did it help with your recovery didn't hinder your recovery. Well I hope that because I mean I think in terms let me enormous sense of entitlement. All I come from I had a genetic weaknesses. Predisposition based on where I came in terms of my family this is a disease. Runs in my family itself I definitely you know physically at the predisposition. He entitled. He's got stopped the ability to be enabling. In terms of the world lots of doctors giving me supposition of me giving -- -- As much to do with my name as it did quit. That time -- and but but you know there. Like one of the things that I realizes that you know in order because in order to change your life profoundly likeness. You need to find some kind of humility. And you need to you know we call hit bottom but I believe in -- the bottom I don't think everybody has to go where I land or a lot of people seemed to go. And -- you can rate your bottom but but but. The the important and critical. That you that you get. To a point where you're basically Welling. To do what other people you do for awhile and I'm -- kind of you know. -- to bully that you really -- now that you're going to try something. You know and that that goes against everything that that. We learned growing up in our country and everything else -- like we're the master of the universe where and a you know we you know ego is he's you know you have to make it -- and all that kind of stop and and getting into recovery means sort of like turn your back on all. And looking at it addict -- differently. I had this idea of surrendering to win I mean you know in my surrender -- was not. -- that anybody. Even get a piece that it they would be like are you out of your mind. Which. -- So so you talk about stigma. What was the stigma associated with somebody who's you know came from here in your background. That's coming out and in recovery. -- -- He. Had that I have not had -- because by half. I don't pay attention to but I'm really lucky but I -- a book called moments of clarity where I interviewed. Them we're very well on some not so while on people out there every moment that got them to recovery and or a number of people. -- at the end of the -- wouldn't publish what they had told me. Because they were to break. Aren't there a big movie stars or big. Rocks start there were -- there were people who had enormous power in the world. And they were afraid of what this would mean in terms of their career. And they are people who are. And bit of reality and they. There are there are people who actually gotten past my son who worked on Wall Street said what if what if somebody you're in your shop on Wall Street at -- -- reasons career would be over -- -- -- be like all go to rehab if -- alcoholic and if you want shot. Rehab but then you're gonna you're always gonna have a. Every time anything goes around -- gonna wonder he called consecutive month. I hit it real I mean there's no question this Israel I didn't suffer chronic and I was in the movie business first off. Advocate and nobody really cared and that they do that I didn't care that they care I'm. I'm totally open and everybody about where I come from I wrote a book about my life where there's some. Very you know the -- things about my struggle and I you know. My thing is my life is is is can be useful for other people it's all up. How do we change how utterly changed that Christopher. How -- we changed the public. Well lady and it's going to be slow and there's got to be I mean I I quite frankly don't really know uncertain environments whether it ever change. I'm I was a twelve step meeting while ago on a woman -- 25 years was talking about her. Odd jobs in the big job and a big. Real estate company in Los Angeles and she was saying -- the year company. The people. So right now no cart what they're most -- of -- -- light and they put those up all of the lobby. And she wanted to right now that you -- out of her recovery which you couldn't do that -- felt -- was stupid risk and so. I don't I don't see that changing quite frankly I don't think the perception. And and it's a real perception by the way and it's and there is real because people who are active in their in the active phase of this settlements. Paid. They're bad that sometimes make predictions. And boat so that the this is not an issue is that you can go all of it it's it's smoking -- -- we all. People we -- create we view create damage out there. There and we do it as a result of being. Alcoholic or an hour or and that's real and and society have to protect it well. And the -- and -- and employers up to protect themselves against. That the shirt and so I don't you know I think the best we can hope for. A eight I pay eight methodologies. Kind of that goes into -- back once this is I got -- -- and that there is an opportunity for people I believe in accountability I think. People up -- so those are accountable or. Once they know they have it they are responsible for doing something about it and it paid to all nations suffer the consequences. It's -- Christopher's so taking that same mindset -- looking inside your own family. In an early recovery for you and and I'm doing what has the the enlightenment about the addiction and recovery -- in your family what has the reaction been whether people that are open to it. Yeah I think yeah well I don't know quite you know quite frankly I mean. In my own experience I have now three sisters who have never. Really manifested this disease and that active -- but I know a lot. They have a lot of these -- them up and in my opinion but they don't have. Because they grew up and and I don't know what they I don't think they look at me and pick up particularly great for being over. They're I think on some level they wished I was -- I was much more valuable. When I was an aspect quite frankly it's getting into recovery doesn't mean everybody's going to be really happy about. Because you become you become somebody you become a force of nature as some he would deal what -- So -- doormat anymore. And I'll be getting arrested but you're also not doing what people want it is. Well this this book you've written I think is a wonderful gift that we we we can give the rest of the world. Thanks for writing it what addicts no time lessons from recovery to benefit everybody. Everyone Christopher Kennedy -- for thank you so much for taking time out today. And. Actually I don't know -- -- in everybody in Boston on the ethics case there's gonna talk regret. You're gonna be -- Boston signing your new book at the Harvard bookstore in Cambridge on Thursday January 16. At 7 PM good down. On them and keep -- Man. Yeah you've currently got there are you guys particularly here. It takes on what's your listening to right turned radio on WRKO. Six helium coming up in our next segment. Every we have agreed in view that woody did with interventionist. David Lee and how addicts can hijack the emotions will be right back with breakthrough in radio on WR Kerio succeeded him. -- Yeah. Welcome back I'm John -- hand here with -- dean. And you listen to -- turned radio and WRKO. Succeeded him. Tonight we're bringing you another interview from our speakers series return radius collection of exclusive interviews with the nation's leading specialists. In the addiction and recovery feel appears Woody's. Would be -- in an interview with David Lee a board certified interventionist and founder of intervention services. On how addicts hijacking emotions. This is this. Acres series presented by right turn radio and were alive at the foundations. Recovering networks moments of change conference in Palm Beach, Florida. I'm innings when he keeps -- and I'm your host and tonight I am joined by David. Lee who is a board registered interventionist you do the good work. You do the good work and I know that yours presenting here at the conference and talking about why families wait opinion just talk a little bit about your presentation. Why do for him. You know a lot of families have a loved one that's suffering from addiction are struggling. And it isn't the first time they've been struggling isn't something they discovered yesterday it's maybe it's been going on for a year two or three. And what we found is across the board it seems like families. And up emotionally hijacked by their loved ones. That causes these families to postpone put it off. Or whatever have you in the in the kind of pushing them into treatment and what my presentation is about as -- emotional hijacking that exists. Within family systems that are common across the board and all family systems and in the four motions. Our guilt. Hope sympathy and fear. In those four emotions more than anything else or what causes families to put off kinda doing what's necessary in order to get their loved one in the treatment. So -- are you saying that that the person who needs help is experiencing these and their kind of projecting -- to their family members. Postponing. The intervention process. Know what what I suggest in my presentation is that that addicts as a result of their addiction. Become experts -- hijacking the emotions of those around them. So whenever crises occurs in their life whether it's. You know he didn't come to work yesterday we -- fire you or hey you can't live at my house or why did you steal from me. Or hey we want or rescue. Addicts become experts of hijacking the emotions of those around them causing those people feel certain feelings. Which they in turn will automatically. Be compelled to enable the -- You know when we're all aware that that kind of pathology of someone who's struggling with substance use disorder or other mental health issues. Is that they they do manipulate they'd do -- -- ways to survive. But the David did do -- are you finding that the families need just as much help as the individual at this point. Absolutely you know we've been we teach a lot of family systems. We just teach him kind of a different way. There is tackle the classic statement you know addicts manipulate what we do is we try to introduce the science of manipulation. The cause and in fact and specifically how this happens. And when you do that the families are empowered to just enough that they can look at the situation go wow now IC what's really happened. Moment to moment to moment in so walk us through this family peaceful more. How how do we get to prepare the family to. Turn the corner -- Wednesday. Yes or more ready for an election. Well there's several different interventions the first intervention -- Realistically when a family calls out they reach out. They've got some crisis that has occurred. They want to do something but there's susceptible. To the attic in the background is kind of saying things like. I promise I'll quit tomorrow all I don't need to go to treatment -- never do it again. You know or fear you know if you kick me out you'll never seen again or -- go move in with the drug dealer and then -- overdose and then I'll die or if you don't give me money I'll go rob a bank. So that dynamic -- exists the family reaches out. Usually because -- either you know very frightened or usually angry. -- done something there. For a brief moment. They reach out and what our job really is to educate the family enough and usually takes about an hour two on the phones so that they can see this dynamic. And understand that. Tomorrow they are going to feel different. In a week that they are going to feel more hopeful more guilty more sympathetic more afraid and they will automatically begin to back off on the intervention. So we have to educate them on the right way is understand that how you feel today. You are going to feel different tomorrow because as soon as you hang up the phone with me. Your loved one who is in crisis. Is going to begin to hijack your emotions because you'd feel sympathy towards them or guilt or hope for fear. In you will back off. You'll automatically become all the back off so the first process is that. Is getting their agreement that this is part of the problem. Above and beyond just the addiction. And then the real intervention itself as an eight hour. Family day is what we call talent friend's day. -- our whole purpose is to educate that family on those dynamics have them look at addiction in a different way enabling in a different way so that everyone is an agreement. And then we have the intervention itself which is the face to face meeting. And what's interesting is is when they are empowered with the knowledge. Of specifically how the -- is going to manipulate them how they are going to hijack their emotions when we meet the next day. The families are like he's saying exactly the same thing you said he was going to say. How did you know that and they look at it and they realize that addiction is not a random roll the dice. That this is it that there are many parts of addictions that are that are predictable. That addicts behave. In very predictable. Yet at sometimes unpredictable. Ways and so you're able to predict this with him. Which helps them understand. That there -- this manipulation p.'s exactly we've we can we can relatively predict about twenty different manipulation of the addict is going to do. The following day and what's educational for the family is this isn't the first time they've intervened they intervened three months ago when they get a face to face. Please quit using drugs why don't you go to this wonderful treatment program I heard it works really well for show. So they've already intervened a thousand times they've already experienced an intervention. And they didn't understand why it didn't work. They tried to talk and they left. Feeling like they had made some progress. And yet in reality of their loved one did not enter treatment did not do the recovery peace. Or if they did it was always an animal you know instead of a twenty day program that went to a detox. Instead of a six month halfway house they did a two week in patient and kind of didn't go to meetings or -- any therapy. So we try to educate and empower them so they understand. These manipulation are going to occur for the next -- these years this isn't specific only to an intervention. This is anytime there's any uncomfortable crisis the Packers. But don't you love it when people said you know I've already tried treatment for and it didn't work and you know you and I know that any attempt at treatment is going to. To be beneficial on some level sure multiple times that treatment is not necessarily a bad thing. But how many times the other person said hey I'm not going to -- -- -- that it didn't work. I love it when they say it didn't work because there identifying the problem right there. It didn't work describes in a singular event and many people families included look at treatment as an event. You know if David goes to treatment he will be a therapist the therapist will talk to him about his past they will discover something. And his life will change from that moment forward and he is now fixed. Families tell me all the time he went to such and such a rehab it didn't work there is no it. There is a path. There is a path to recovery. There is no singular yet when an addict tells me it. They missed the whole point of the recovery process. It's almost like. If I were diabetic. And I did my yearly checkup and I went to the doctor and I got my blood work and everything no one would come to me NC did it work. There is no it if I went to the gym tomorrow. Would somebody say did it work. There's no it. Is it lifestyle change. Is a recovery process is an uncomfortable process there is a path. Our goal is to get families to understand the path. David you're an account for sure how that your recovery. Or how has your recovery. Helped you in this process and well it it helped me. My brother and I started the company my brother was a classic enabler was the classic addict. My family system was hijacked by me over and over I went to a lot of different treatment programs. My family went on a quest to find the magic rehab for me which one would work quote unquote they didn't understand the path. My experiences are in retrospect looking back. Is it that we're almost a worst case scenario because it went so many treatment programs and unit yet our model really applies towards our life. We have a family system that was hijacked all the time -- me. I was really good -- projecting an illusion of hope. I do a lot of terrible things and yet my mother would. I can't do this anymore I can't take you need to go to this rehab and she would leave that conversation. With -- not going to rehab but her hopeful that I was getting better. In most of my story was not getting better I was not willing to do the uncomfortable parts of treatment. And I would -- my family so that they would use the uncomfortable parts of my life forming. So when you look at my life my life is really it's it's it's about. In -- treatment and recovery are not really necessarily about addiction there about life skills they are about facing the uncomfortable parts of life and halting manner. If you looked at all the treatment programs that I went to the one thing I had in common. Is that if it was option a do this uncomfortable thing -- option B. Do this slightly you know less uncomfortable thing I always chose the less comfortable route. And I hijacked my family's that they get all the comfortable things forming. It's very common will see a lot of times we'll do an intervention in after treatment the family will put them in an apartment. They don't have to get a job you'll pay their bills we'll get a car. They have just destroyed this -- recovery. And my family situation was no different. So you know how it's my recovery is you know were really big on family systems -- really be big on looking at recovering in a different way. And it needs to work and my family system and and it's really fascinating when your coverage is to get to look back. And you get to see. The biggest advantage that we had is my brother and I used to -- team interventions. It was a a non attic my brother and myself. And we would enter these family systems and we would talk and he had his perception of the way things weren't I had my perception. And a lot of times they were complete opposites and and somewhere down the line. We found in the middle truth. And the truth was he was partially right I was partially right but through it all my addictions. Manipulating at all so we couldn't feel objectively. You're listening to right -- radio on WRKO. Six AD AM more from -- interview with interventionist David Lee after the break. -- -- Welcome back I'm John throwing hand here with redeem your listening to break through radio. We're going back to part two. Of -- he's been an interview with intervention is vividly. So David you. Who are in recovery and Europe and an intervention in the process with the family on the day of the intervention does -- come up the urine recovery. And is that even important. On the family and friends -- -- it comes up almost immediately. Now and the reason is because we have to. Give the family permission to lower their guard and make themselves vulnerable and be able to share a lot of their secrets. And when you have a history of VI rob the bank and I stole from my mom and you put that on the table the families then can disclose what it creates. A really strong group when you do that the family's. Love it and in many cases prefer. That the interventionist is in recovery or has some history here you know former addiction issues. The addict and I I don't think they necessarily care. They'd they do they will say oh you can kind of relate sometimes will step aside in -- wanted to have a cigarette we can talk to them kind of one on one. But it. You have to understand were addicts are out addicts. You -- you know they want their life to change. But they're looking in the wrong places for their their. They're not really interest -- necessarily in this long term happy you're here to kind of present. I think -- that. They will disclose a bit more Q but they don't it's not like. That movie goodwill hunting you know or Robin Williams was the therapist and he crack through the shell and they cried in the they have that that epiphany in that moment. It isn't really like that. A lot of times. Addicts generally are not that world where there in the first place. I'll put it that way they have built to comfort zone over years. They know that this situation is different. They know that all the family is there they know some proper professional who may be flew out is there. They know they can't just run away and leave us there to kind of talk to the family their stock. And they wish the situation would go away. More often than not the attic will try to invalidate me who's this guy. He doesn't know me. Who are you to bring all talk to all of you if that guy Lee's mom can I talk to you one on one. So you have to understand the family is praying. That somebody somewhere someplace. Can deliver their son. Their son is not deliver that their son is not praying for the same thing there's sun is praying for one of two things. What can I do right now to feel better. And what can thank you to make this uncomfortable situation ago way as the two prayers of an addict when I show up I don't necessarily fulfill. The answer to either of those -- Now in some cases we can't for heroin -- they might. Paid do you have you know is this detox -- have medication. You know things like that we can give them some hope. But overall. It's only on the flight. The flight to treatment that we can begin to kind of share a little bit more and I think it becomes important we walk in the door there were the last person in the world they want. It's great to send a message that treatment works and we know the longer people -- treatment the better they get. Absolutely I'm a firm believer in not only residential treatment that the after care and a lot of families don't understand the after care component they want. The twentieth -- program to work my recommendation many times news. Residential and patient followed by a halfway house for perhaps intensive outpatient. You have to look at it like that again there's a path. There's not a singular event -- and it's hard for families to hear that. David thank you so much for taking time you're busy schedule. It's great to hear you keep up the good work if it's an honor to be here thank you thank you. I was agreed interview with David -- Yeah I mean that I just. He just has so -- skewed sense and you know he didn't have tickets and -- active yes -- -- -- -- blitzed you from my mom and her group. How in Chinese like this grown up professional whose common normal in the. It is just like what would he said you know treatment works in and mrs. Did they talk about treatment episodes in and you often people with long term recovery. I know a few myself who had a lot of different treatment episodes of one of my best. Friends and recovery. -- in treatment twenty times. And sometimes people lake state they get one piece of it felt -- the next you know cam not doing drugs right now but then something RM that drinking anymore. But then something else in terms of the -- they you know they've taken on another -- sex -- -- and then they hit. And I think. You know that's what Christopher can you offer this time and I used to mean what he's talking -- is this isn't a destination this is -- journey you know. And if you sit there and say did you get better yet. You know you know. No because you're still living everyday and every day you could not be better. But the expectations of families and we see a lot of times and our place. They wanna. OK you know you're done you've done you've done a -- okay you better anybody that could get on with your life and it's you really have to work with a lot of families. And educate them about public what you call the process of of long term. Maintenance and work on this you know at first it's like this very acute care. And you're doing triage on the issues and then the longer term thing is this you know kind of of of -- daily maintenance instances it's over the can be an overwhelming idea for a family. For parents to think that. You know this might be something that we have to work for the rest of -- in and mr. -- spoke about family systems and and do you have any of all people -- the family therapist how difficult that can be. I mean any one the other themes that really struck me was this whole. You know I had to David -- didn't discuss it directly but its underlying guilt and shame and fear yeah. Was that stigma. That. So you know I was I was talking to a mother in the past week or two who said that she is too scared to tell any of her friends. And she finally. About why she'd been so distracted my she had to fly after Florida didn't deliver us kids there and all that. And she says she finally told her bus and have -- that. I know. I have the same you know five years ago I went to the same thing with my kid and it was like. But because there's so much fear and solemn event you know and so much -- like oh it must be my fault. Her or wherever it comes from or. Addicts don't happen to good families can -- No he charity and now they're two people who've been through it get it can supporting each other and there's a lot more out there but you know. It is so hard to share of the stuff we're. And we're talking I mean this is an issue that comes buffalo and I'm I think I'm very interested in it only because. You know the idea of kind of these student rising addiction recovery in and then you know the greater culture at large. Is a big issue for him ever move forward with things. And then there was this new movie that we saw. Called -- anonymous people in the talks about and talks about people coming out and and you look at the the gay rights movement. Of the seventies how people can really change things politically. By coming out by you know the the by becoming. Open about their recovery and you know I've -- about their you know their sexuality and and and all that. So you know that's why I ask Christopher about it was because I mattresses is no -- and we. Using IE into if he interviewed people. And they did the interview and then they'd be like right no they did not take effect -- -- and and you know the machine it's scary that's been. And we sort of. Having well known people -- come out as sober friend them because then it you know then. If they have a beer in the hander summit thinks at a bare hand then -- you know the headline is they've relapse recognize and you know and nothing is private. But it's the same issue with it with gay rights it was that same same thing the statement -- position so it does have to change in and and it does you know people like Chris Kennedy La offered writing books like this and then you know he'll go on Oprah and it'll become normalized eventually. Every family is touched by this and so it's hard to imagine. Somebody who doesn't know somebody with -- the problem of addiction mental health or somebody in recovery. But people who are suffering from addiction not really good lately. Making other people followed up with a lot of good advertising hasn't recovered you know you'd. It's hard to sell a program that's not you know appeared SP CA yeah helping kitten and -- except for -- it adds that the most popular group of people but so and I like the idea of -- seem. -- hope because this time he really means it when he says is can quit yes and fear I think that those are -- in Fuller. So I mean families need to -- sooner the younger you go you let somebody hijacked your family. The more miserably -- me. -- denial doesn't work as a coping strategies and more we know and the more families are involved in treatment the better. The treatment treated warned this. I wanna make sure everybody knows the Christopher Kennedy laughter who's doing a book signing. At the Harvard bookstore in Cambridge Massachusetts. On Thursday January 16 at 7 PM my mom's spirit that is that you monstrous -- who will do have a dual celebration that -- Upcoming events -- rate term include the open Mike the third Saturday of every month. Next week we have the MC three not to be confused with the MC five. Senator and I look we sent him -- have great strength and a clock every Saturday. It was great it was great it was done through 99 Broadway own family went unknowns in Arlington and we have the rate -- website which is doing giving wonderful. Baseless facelift. We have right turn on FaceBook comment -- to see what's going on. -- rate through and we also have our new podcasts. On iTunes available on iTunes right now it's called rate turned radio you can search for. On there and it's under the self help having believe. And -- ruby are wonderful producers put that together we'd like to thank our incredible engineered. It's Sweeney. For all the work he does here on the return review every it's been a pleasure to be with. Always fun doing this with -- and so remember -- be safe ask for help but ask for help sooner.