May 15, 2018|
Jason Hawes & JV Johnson talk with PhD Kevin Randle about the infamous Socorro, NM UFO landing incident as well as other UFO phenomenon. 5/15/2018 - Beyond Reality Radio with Jason Hawes & JV Johnson
Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.
I cannot be owned by scientific method. You're six. Send him tall and. Creature that's been seen my many little life you know. And de Ferran good morning mining boom Herron online inning and news features and yeah me. He lying then yeah real mania apple is lying game. It also shape shifting mentioned you. My experience it's an experience. And I. It's on the West Coast Tuesday on the East Coast many years simmering between welcomed me on review myself Jason dollars and it was a. Some chief each is this is the day we get to start a new week out. Fresh off the weekend and week sound I. It is at work out a little. Knowing it's a Monday night. And we get to start a whole new week programs we got a great stuff gonna to sweep by the rest of Tuesday. My district is an important or you are rooted does it's the one of those gray areas that we get into all the time could not hit a member were first. Doing this whether syndicator Westwood One and we are both confused about the day India where we're starting Sunday at Bermuda NATO is it Monday yes I am Israeli if you hit it really is confusing and I think I mean if I were to be a technical person about this I would say midnight twelve clock is still part of the previous states not to go to 000. Wine. Or zero in on 12. That it actually becomes the next day that's my my theory and it summon a step to that went around with it but I'll support you or right or wrong support ex buddy welcome back to the program everybody it's beyond reality radio of course -- to talk UFO's with Kevin Randle he's a Ph.D. Also a retired lieutenant colonel from the air force and we're talking about the sykora all UFO landing of 1964. And one of the things that makes this particular story. So unique is that on. A police officer was the major witness a very well respected reputable police officer in a lot of lot of sightings CE and people call into the question of the character of the person who reports it. This guy was pretty rock solid. And his report was pretty detailed. There are some core operating witnesses also. And it's stood up to a lot of scrutiny it's still you know new storm Knoll irrefutable proof however this is one of the best. Documented cases of UFO landing that it's on the record almost seventeen years after browse. Oh yeah that's right and and it was in New Mexico's will sykora rose in New Mexico. On and Kevin Randle our guest tonight is actually an expert on Roswell as wells will be able to connect those two in and maybe do some comparing and contrasting of those two reports. And Beatrice you know but I know what I can see the excitement in your face I can tell I think any time we're talking about UFO's and. And things I its it is something that excites me is it's an interest that I've always had never never had the ability. To really get out there and investigated because all my time has been pretty much investigating want to send me and and demonic possessions and ghosts or you name it. Things of that nature so this is this is a topic that I've always been intrigued by. But I literally have chance to get out and get my hands dirty. Yet assault on good I was talking about the fact that today is national chicken dance day is what had you and if that's is that normal success at a that you're here and play the music you know what I was thinking about that but I think that might even be 22. Hokey for this program. Elated every wedding they play everywhere every father daughter dance ever wants every one view is there's always play that song I actually did the chicken to your music yet yet I actually did the chicken dance in Munich at the hopper house. It'll to a new blood and playing it it was kind of fun to actually do it there and I will say there were few blue big leader opera house Beers involved. To make. Mean America Australia and have to yeah but we can't have been stage into the chicken dance. Anyways if you have yet head over to FaceBook dot com slash beyond reality reveal it to FaceBook page tourist. Then had to be under reality radio dot com where he can net final stations we are cross country were constantly updating the list and check in Austin. It also download the free iPhone an injury to operate there which allows atlas and lies catch Pashos Julia online chat more. And gorgeous stretch for the website just click the pop up button in the upper hand corner of beyond reality radio dot com. That'll open up a chat room you listen to the show from there hang out with the Greek community people and so it was a good times and issue check it out if you Dallas over my two and so do you favor and just rated for arsenal's push it forward makes it easier for people to file. Yeah we want people to do that we want people leave be able to find it easy we end connect with us and chat with us and all that stuff it's it's it makes the program better for all of us we really enjoy that. A couple great things coming up during the week too isn't it we get Sarah Mendelson joining us an animal Chandler. And communicators she's also. An author and speaker. And she's written a book called we walk beside you little black pause publishing is the publisher of that book and it opens the door to the breathtaking world of the animals consciousness. And wisdom of animals and what animals actually understand about life and arts what they know about us. Went in about a spelling and you've probably never want him to say what they know he caught it I think they cius sometimes in the most. You know it's like you're the guy come walking out of the shower and my dog talkers to settler. And at and TE GE DT on disappearance starent may lie in whatever. Just dogs the dogs are awesome but they're also weird to yeah Thomas and the winds are we talk to a doctor Claire Johnson lucid dreaming expert. We talked about mindful lucid dreaming boy dreams are important and how to have some treatments. So. And Gary Williams will be within us on Thursday night he's a psychic investigator he's talking about a book that he's written called the miracle workers. The world's psychic consultants and it's kind of yellow pages guide to mediums clairvoyance healers and neurologists. And other people that help with mind body and spirit. He'd recommend some and he kind of offer some ideas on how to avoid fakes which we know there are fakes and an industry. And that Gary will talk to us all about that there's an. So a lot of great shows lined up summation you'd you tune in and check amounts are. Our well I think wolf. We'll take quick break in Britain and will come back and we'll start talking about some beautiful visuals that Jason GBM beyond reality radio. Yeah revealed friends this is champion and telling you need to go check outs silicon dot com it's the website for the event coming up in June in New England in fact it's in Framingham Massachusetts. And sit fan convention that features paranormal. Horror scifi celebrity guests plus panel discussions film premieres and screenings parties and a whole lot more a lot of fan interaction collectibles great Sanders a lot of great stuff. It's being held June 6 and seventeenth in Framingham Massachusetts all the details are being put up on scare a con. Dot com check it out he be on reality radio listeners use promo code BRR and check out for scare Connie mission in save an additional 15%. That's promo code BE RR. Spirit con dot com. Our kids have changed. Our phone number is 8446877669. You'll need to write that down we'll take calls later in the program we're going to be talking about UFO's primarily tonight whether guest Kevin Randle. Kevin is a Ph.D. also retired lieutenant colonel from the air force. And he's also an expert one of the leading experts and you follow Agee. He is one of the top dogs here today and we're gonna get into the nuts and bolts of the stuff within tonight. Senator should be fun all right so let's bring Kevin into the program Kevin welcome to be unreal you re a great to have you on tonight. Oh thank you very much and I certainly hate to correct you looked at the very beginning of the program. Well you lieutenant colonel in the army. Oh yeah I saw something about the air force did you do something air force reserve. Yes I would like started out active duty army that I went to. Air force in the air force reserve and then the Iowa National Guard so. Okay see my career with but saw that's what. I had and I don't mind being corrected I'd rather have the correct and EST if you know should be correcting us all night so if she's so it the other thing you know these. Army so much more important in the airport who here is. How the army at the actual armed force. Are you trying to generate phone calls now is that is that your objective tips and he's. It's not an an a and the air force Ono in our city we welcome to the program we're excited about. This discussion tonight be before we get into. This specifics of what we're gonna talk about this a coral event in and some other UFO specific events told us about how you. How you got to the point where that any of this stuff interest in do you do again. In the very beginning. Yeah let's start all we go back into the 1950s and I hesitate to say that because it hurts my heart. My mother was intricate. Science fiction and she dragged me to a movie earth vs the flying saucers. And that kind of started my interest in and she was Cuban became a science fiction science fiction is about alien visitation life on other planets and eight. Alien civilizations and all that haven't got a great staff from. That into the arena UFO's which we're talking about interstellar flight like another planet and that sort of thing so she kind of sparked their interest. And then I know while I wouldn't high school I read a book called strangers in the skies by my friend. A good friend Brad Steiger who just passed away. We could go left. Who we could go yesterday. And that kind of underscored that I had an opportunity talked to Brad. When I was just beginning and I was writing a book about her normal things. I come across the story about a kid who'd vanished mysteriously in Wales and like I got the secret of finding Brad Steiger at the time because he was originally. You've been born in Eugene Olson and he admired Rod Steiger as a writer. We changed his name he wrote under the name Brad Steiger but I knew we would you give ultimately annually where you live there were taught. It's like called directory assistance in the pre Internet days and got him on the phone and leaves just. So nice. And so cordial about this and don't don't talk about that that's going to Hoke I've thought about it a hoax and we kind of had today friendship for. Literally forty years. From that point on. So that kinda got me all wild not to do UFO. Research into writing about you oppose that sort of thing. As you. Were influenced by a 1950s. Scifi films and as you tell if some of my favorite films so I understand blowing them over the armed. And in an obviously it's round that same time and events and occurrences like. Roswell and even we're gonna talk about in just a little bit the sykora landing. On these are happening. At that time and were you aware of those at the time while you work. Younger and kind of paying attention to the pop culture of it vs what was happening did you see the headlines did you hear the reports at the time or was this something we had to learn about later. Well from there wasn't born in 1940 several rival app stores either headlines suggest. When doors but but what do I think in and I didn't know that the time but one of the greatest headlines have ever seen in the newspapers in the seat rapids Iowa is that. And it was after the Washington national sightings in Washington DC obviously in 1952 were. Jet fighters intercepted the UFO's over Washington DC it is that the object was seen on radar. On two consecutive Saturday night's. And headline in the Cedar Rapids gazette banner headline in this something right out of a science fiction film is that doctors swarmed over capitol. Wow what a great headlines but I of course found that much much later but with the support of sighting I do remember that. When it happened in the Walter Cronkite reporting on it on the CBS evening news or whatever they call that program at the time and neighbors however it is just you this story about flying saucer and the coral or heard about that one at that time. And as my my interest develop normally move move beyond the coral 1964 and two. Of these what we have that's fighting this. We're headline news around the country I was always kind of where where have what was going on where it was happening so. The earliest stop from the of those late forties early fifties no we get into the 1960 you know I was I was aware of what was going on. When you. Became aware of these things were you immediately a skeptic. Or did you immediately. Develop a curiosity that may June. Wanna pursue the truth of all of us. I was very curious about it and I remember the very first you a full investigation ever went on. While I was still in high school friend of mine's mother could keep flying saucer at some point. And she agreed to sit down and can talk to me one question I wanted to answer only what they really had for her was. Was developed by the object in the distance or wanted to. Something that was. Clearly and sharply defined because of the I'm we were hearing about well and people feel pose delicate these blobs of light in the distance of these Fuzzy objects that they can't really make out. So my question at her home. What did it look like within sharply distinguish dobbs. And she said that it has been hovering over their bar has about 200 feet above but it was very sharply this. Defined and it was very. Large and she got a very good look at it for a number of minutes and that was the one thing that I want is not a kind of spun off from there I had a friend in high school was also very interest that you oppose we started out. A like doctor are you a full investigative organization. And we we grew our name out of a science fiction movie we are used offices scientific investigation. Which it. Appeared a couple of the old science fiction films and so we at letterhead paper and all of that stuff so we were doing investigations. Officers scientific investigation until last. We graduated from high school on. I ended up in the US so they army and you went off to college so I hope I kinda ended our investigation. The other but I still maintain my interest in in you oppose from the airport on. Order comes down to investigating. UFO reports and he is it's it's got to be a little tough because all it is is you're going on interviewing people and and asking what the experience what they saw and so forth solid you're able to actually get out there and and locate something at that time correct. What would you say locate something of a talking about the object with that they've they've seen no we we are always late getting there about but. Liken them murder mystery in the I hesitate to use the term murder mystery or a robbery. There's evidence left behind and occasionally sometimes are photographed sometimes are landing traces that are left behind. Sometimes your radar track sometimes are photographs old that there are things that can be analyzed. I think it was. At Fella who is known for his. Investigation of UFO landing site. And he was saying. That if you describe the object to him. He could tell you what the lending crisis would look like a vice a Versa if if he saw the landing traces he could tell you what kind of object. There was some correlation between the lending crisis and the objects. Which you wouldn't see if there was something really have hazard hand. I'm real or imaginary. So there are things like that can be analyzed what we do about half of and it and it's really kind of bothered me for quite a lot of time. The number of photographs taken from different locations. Of the same object at the same time. By independent observers. If we had something like that that we can get all kinds of measurements and all kinds of information from what we have is nobody will take like a series of photographs. And in today's environment with computers and all of that we have every ten year old kid in the world. Investigating. Her and bending their UFO photographs and it becomes very problematic in determining what was. What was seen of what was real what was not. But there are a number of very good physical evidence cases where there were landing traces behind its core OB one. There's some very good photographic cases. But the other problem that we're running into. An image of at and invest it or not really a probable we're solving some of the old classic. Where it seemed that they were inexplicable at the time they were reported but as we've learned more about the environment around us. Or we've had an opportunity to see more of what's going on learn other things we've been able to identified somebody's and one of the one. That I think oh in the act cases the child with the signing from 1948. And these were two airline pilots who saw what they thought was an army jet coming out and the at the time the it was an army air forces as the united states air force coming out some of the bright light that would item and they copied in a cigar shaped craft. Was where windows. Will hold hold on a William Morant that he can take a quick break a lot more Tomlinson Jason GBM guiana island. Non. After playing eighteen for one of the James Bond movies tonight just because talking about UFO's always reminds me of government agency conspiracies. And secrets. And special agents government secrets is accurate and that is that a paradox an oxymoron com. I would never keep it after months we are talking with Kevin Randle tonight Kevin Reynolds who retired lieutenant colonel is also Ph.D. an author I mean a prolific author Kevin you've written something like 120 plus books somewhere in any neighborhood great. Yes I have but they all have been on UFOs. Right and you've got to twenty some that one meter so that we UFOs in Norton paranormal topics. Yes in fact when I was at a moved on convention in Denver a couple of years ago some guy came up to me is that you know you've written more you local book than anybody. I immediately said no I think it's Brad Steiger. And so Brad and I used to laugh about that who was ahead in the six net. Nick Redford it's catching up with well now you're gonna be able to catch Brad let I would have to get busy get bit stay ahead of. You've got to get you've got some work to do leg Kevin but I think all the work you've done has been fantastic no we in Iraq did you want to go to break your so what are you go ahead and kind of pick up the story where you left it. And I want to know what that alternate opening the door to the sykora discussion. OK but I would like to say one thing before we do that more appropriate theme James Bond thing being moved lakers and that route and a great point that would have been the ones do yes I'm sorry I didn't mean she. And anyway since we're we were talking about the child would citing what they've seen back in 1947. The cigar shaped craft was where windows on the march of 1968. One of the Russian rockets satellites. Go back to earth and was seen all over the United States and what was interesting is the number of people. Saw what they thought I was the charts that are shaped craft what was square with little water. Which suggests that something breaking up in the sky like that would give the impression of a lighted cockpit and square windows. Looking at. Videos on YouTube but there was something called the meteor compilation and it was like three minutes fifty seconds something like that it was a compilation of meteor. Falling and you would see. How has the object broke up you begin to get this idea that it a progression of crap with windows along the side maybe a very polite I think light are. I think. But the point simply was that our knowledge of what the meteors all like to look like he's very bright meteor like and that sort of thing chose Howell the mine can't. It's filled in details around it gives the impression of the cigar shaped craft what it was something that. Was really breaking up in the sky thought yup that's kind of what my point what are we learning learning something we've been able to solve some of the older cases. What we moved to the coral noted that bicycle simply very nice move that's a coral we've got an object on the ground and even though we've had fifty years to research that we still haven't come up with a solid explanation for what was seen. So let's for for a lot of listeners that may not be familiar with this incident. There are a lot of the people who's followed the UFO. Sightings and reports pretty closely but their luck that don't so why don't you give us the nuts and bolts of what this particular sighting report. An incident once. I think that what's so important everybody would know what I would need to do that. Would have read my book buying. But assuming that isn't true and unfortunately I think that probably not true. What we have is and event took place on April 24 nineteen. 64. But at a more pleased with its core of the Mexico it's on the highway between. Allah Albuquerque and a powerful. And he treasonous Peter who towns around 6 o'clock at night he hears something off in the distance that he thinks is dynamite. Storage shepherd dynamite had exploded so he breaks off the chase and he goes. Towards the dynamite Shaq and climbing up a couple of bullet killed like at dinosaur royal. He sees the object that he thinks at first is an overturned cars we start down there to see if you can help it turns out that it say. A craft of some kind of white like craft and four legs. He gets he stopped to get out of the car he sees too being this year it. They turned to look at him and then scarier around the back in the thing lift off this guy and disappears and citing his last. Who have minutes maybe something like that the beans aren't site less than a minute. So we've got a police officer who has who's doing one thing and come across this. Object on the ground immediately. He's alert the headquartered league headquarters. Let's say the sheriff's office that the police headquarters. One of his good friend to have to be a state policeman comes out there immediately. And he is the lending your impressions and he's this portion some scrub brush surrounded. As I grasses around the smoking that it. About obviously been subjected to high heat so he sees the physical evidence right after the objects disappeared there's some discussion whether or not it was the one guy when he got there or not. The only denied that he never saw anything but there's more investment especially may actually seen him play in the distance. The FBI gets involved that night. The army gets involved and I think the army the White Sands Missile Range which is near Alamogordo, New Mexico the range. The death acting range goes all the way up close the sykora and there's an army officer who's. Duty station at white sands is much closer to sykora that it is Alamogordo. He's called in. End of the FBI agent the army officer and some of one is a more Powell's. Question about what he's seen and made report that actually got some very nice documentation. That went on with deciding important points in an object on the ground he's seen at liftoff piecing them. Apparently to being from inside the craft outside it's it's one of the very few cases from the project blue book files that is. The report with occupants involved it's labeled other identified because there. Attitude was that if you see the creature from inside Leo obviously has some kind of problems with delusions or your mentally unstable and so action they would write it off as psychological problems. This is one of the few that they didn't do that conflict of this important case for that reason if nothing else. And you said that the whole incident for one is a moral lesson about two and a half minutes from the point where he first saw the craft to the craft taking off and disappearing. It was a very short time that it was on the ground are very short time that he observed it. A lot of UFO sightings. Last matter of seconds and you wonder what kind of perception these people get from that short of observation but he would close enough. They got a very good look. Look at that he would get within 3040 yards on the ground so he got a very good look at it look at occupants the creature from the inside so he's got a very good. Look at it on the ground and he's got a good look at that as added as it took off. And what a DC the occupants actually looked like and I know there's been references to them being in wait you wait uniform type. Outfits. Like overalls as. What happened and both captain Richard Holbrooke who was the air force the army officer was there and Arthur Burns who the FBI guy. When they talk who. The more they suggested. He better not mention that being. Not because they were trying to suppress information but they were afraid of the reaction. The public in the new immediately got out that he was claimed the ailing creatures. There was also a symbol on the side of the crap and captain holder says maybe we should not talk about that too much. Because that way if there's other people who report the same craft and they can't. Draw the same symbol used up and we know we've got a copy something like that so they were withholding information. Not a process but what I think are very good. Recent note Jim Correll rendered from the era of economic research organization who was there within 48 hours. Agreed with holder and burned and what they have done so it wasn't something that military the FBI has done that government is down. The once approved by the civilian organizations involved. The job. Description that he gave that that the more able probably very vague about it he talked about that too white coveralls or humanoid type creatures. Two arms two legs. Didn't seem to see any head here which became very vague about what he's seen and I think part of that was the you reaction once that information got out from the news media but also what. The FBI agent has suggested that. Or about how far would. How far was was decimated that he was from the east beings in the craft. Yeah he got as close as about thirty yards to and so he was very close to a minibus that was not a controversy about him losing his glasses and he needed his glasses. Sewell. But what happened was after the it's after the being went back into the crap it was a war logged more pop the things go well law. And he took off running and it's pumped into the side of the car knocked his glasses off and hit the ground and covered it had been. To protect the head of during the explosion hit them in their career. During the Korean War obviously. And had remained. A member of the New Mexico National Guard. Until he retired. So we have military experience of combat in in peacetime. But he was worried about the things blowing up so he got very close he had his glasses on for the left the door well into the fighting ended. We got a very good look at everything that was going on. I'm a matter royal. So thirty aren't so we're looking at about ninety feet now was he able to make out any facial. And definition aren't isn't what it or not. He did not talk about any facial features are anything like that he was always very vague. Well what he says now there are some people in Mexico the core of the Mexico who were friend of his Lee may have shared more information was then that he did live. UFO investigators newspaper reporters and all of that sort of thing I have a friend Robert Cornet. You know I had worked together on a number of beautiful setting the fact we have that made them the two. First two civilians to actually see the project blue book file when they were declassified back in nineteen from the tax. He had gone to as a call to visit the very larger rail to the radio telescope display out. West of west of the coral you've seen in the movie contact. Where they film part of contact. And while he was in a crawl on a lark he called tomorrow. In two more so well having a barbecue come on babble when I got talked about the flying saucer. So Bob went and had a barbecue at London tomorrow but it is brought up flying saucers sunburn reticent to talk about it was he knew you very well. There's a fellow in its core I talked to a couple times is that that not long before Funny or Die. And they went out on kind of trip to the award you know where things happen and all that he's got a good description of what was going on but he felt that. That was information that money would share him with him privately and really didn't want to talk about it. So was money was always very cautious. And careful about what he said and I think part of it was a response to. The news media and bill brattle was remembered bill rattle the guy who picked up some of the debris from the colossal. And he told me as we were talking about it that. He would periodically get phone call like 3 o'clock in the morning from drunks in bars. Wanting to quiz him about what he's seen in the intelligently releasing an effort thing I think Gilani. Moore had similar experiences I know that. Think is his family said he got about 15100 letters from around the world right after this happened to many. We periodically get more correspondent. And phone calls is it time went on but they were. Much much less frequent. One more quick question before we have to go to break here Kevin. You mentioned it was about two and a half men and encountering. And in he said it wasn't very long time and I know that you said that in context of just. What people might think is a long time but as far as UFO sightings and contact that is a pretty long time. And do we have any sense of what one reason more did during those two NF minister eighty stare and wonder DD try to approach DD draws gone. Did he hide in a bush and kind of pure around and do what was his reaction for those two and a half minutes do we know. I would like to say one thing there weren't a lot of big bush afford to hide it behind given given credit even. But he he's not first Aziz is the he moved to craft the oval a ridge line. You went down dip down again their loss side of the craft came up on another hill. And stopped his car got our card started down to approach it. So he got out of the car he you know went to approach the object. Who being rushed round back behind it was kind of a pain when it closed up its machine and then when it began to war. He had hit the dirt in the thing disappeared one of the things he did very quickly. After decide whether the fact it was a symbol on the side. The object and he coup and a scrap of paper with a simple look like that that. Piece of paper actually survived in the pocket mobile fossil we have this. We have a very good accurate description of what the symbol like based on what Lally to Warsaw and sign that before he turned it over to the military. Interesting are we're talking with Kevin Randle about the sykora UFO incident we're gonna continue that discussion on the other side of the break and we will open up your phone calls in the next hour and 844687. 7669. A lot more to come real soon Jason GDP on Hillary. It's game he's thanking you for listening they don't rarity of stations carrying the program around the country we appreciate them joining the list of affiliates and making. The show even better and it's a lot of great stations we lost that. And it looks as costly. Costly growing and we greatly appreciate. All reasons show's success is because of all you tune in and trying to and we know that we'll big thank you all. We do and tonight we're talking with Kevin Randle Kevin on this is a particularly short segment only a couple minutes and I don't know if it's long enough from the we can start the discussion tell us about cloning is a Mora as an individual what his reputation was like is a police officer. Was he credible guy Wazir respected guy obviously that makes a difference from somebody who is reporting that an incident like this. What incredible back handed or left handed compliment he won the brightest guy. In the world. Which suggest you wouldn't be competent enough who. Create any kind of hope with landing gear traces all of that. So in that respect you know it is. Suggest what he saw was real he was respected as a police officer although I understand that the younger people went to coral the college student the high schools who doesn't like him because he would have been speeding ticket. And I don't know why you would blame the plate when you were speeding uses. Are the connectors as everybody else's fault. But he was respect that he was a police officer. He. I believe it was fifteen years after the event he finally return from police force we got another city job. You had been a member of then I get to the New Mexico National Guard he served. Served there. Everybody and in the who knew him we knew him. You to respect him as a credible. Solid citizen. One of the first thing he did after deciding what he wanted to talk to a priest because he's body and something to money but he seems something else. Frightening in that respect and he was there they were very religious man which would suggest he would be part of a prank I don't feel the world class the great the bunker. Has suggested at one point that lauded the more and the merits of coral had concocted the story to. Created toward the traction in the coral is. Of the America land that was on the site where support for Atlanta would become more valuable from South America in normal Landon who on them out. Like. Code talk meaning he would be respected individual in New Mexico. And a credible in the individual and people would say that if you view he told you something you could believe it is being crew doesn't mean he. Reported precisely what he's seen meaning Buick interpretations. Misperceptions of it but he tried to accurately describe what he's seen. And provided drawings. What for the military. In you organizations about what you say. Austin all right so we're gonna take a break we had a lot more to come the phone numbers are 8446877669. Control treaty for four. 6877669. You listened Jason GBD. It's Monday in the West Coast Tuesday. He's got some New Yorkers somewhere. Review myself Jason Hawes and he always awesome achieve each count. Oh we forgot to do we forgot to wish all the mothers who listen to the program happy mother's day of course we went on the air on Sunday so we couldn't do it then but have you must stay told. Moms especially big happy Mother's Day to all the moms are alternates are for everything you do and I'd forgotten I wish my mom and because she's she's just she's kept me alive this long slow middle of the sluggish at just. It at a stick to it deserves a lot of credit. Us all of the order to bring up to his there is it's been floating around in the in the Internet obviously and I think we posted it on the beyond reality radio FaceBook page. Did you see the picture that was caught on security camera the man claims he thinks it was an Angel. You know I saw a post I I really have met on FaceBook at all today so Bada are two checked out. It's a fairly compelling. Picture now my problem with the security cameras is one of those garrison take stills it's not a video camera yet. And it's it's motion sensitive sensitive or motion activated and part of the problem is when you get any kind of flying creature. Let's say a moss. And it's really close to lands the so the perspective is off you see a truck in the background and it's flapping its wings and those in the shutter speed and those cameras and optical fast as nighttime. I'm shooting most of you know in this case. So it can be blurred you know it's hard to really determine exactly what it is but upturn yet. It is if if if it's not a Photoshop picture which I don't know Ted and examine that closely let's assume it's not for a second. It's still pretty compelling it's it's worth taking a look at scramble. And and it ran its its interest in its but I always get worried when they say we put an Angel or no record demon or or some especially in this day and age where. Right down to all these phone apps where people can create a ghost standing and our next on. I mean it's Jesse you got to really question everything you see. Yet you have to be skeptical and you've got to look at it pretty carefully before you can make any determination and he would that on the ship an expert. It's really picking it apart it's very very difficult stuff because there are so many ways to forge something like that these days. And if I don't know if you heard mark marketer. Margot Kidder Margot Kidder it's right I was tournament obviously and it's it's not only Lois Lane but issued her fit my favor rule for us was in on the Amityville horror. Vinatieri in ninety what was 1978 that film came out I think it was misused Ehrlich to then James bro when one of the best or movies and of course the one that started at all. After the book was written and the pretty pretty pretty cool movie but he I'm Margot Kidder should only 69 I think it was was. And she was scheduled to be a scare con a couple times and she can actually ended. Canceling appearances Herrera that patent and she's issues dealing with bipolar disorder and a bunch of other issues mean who knows what happened about. Rest in peace and Kenya Jimerson Pasco is a term analysts aren't Sam. I just have to say this because they ate it makes me chuckle a little bit not to bring politics into this at all. But she was scheduled to appear it's Garrett on the year of the presidential election so that was mushers he before right it was yeah okay. Is she ended up canceling her appearance because she needed to be in Wyoming Wyoming or Montana I think as Montana. Because the root because Bernie Sanders was coming. And she was the chairman of the Bernie Sanders Sanders. Campaign for Montana or something like that she be there for it. And couldn't come to this they're kind of vent that you've contracted come forth anyway whenever I just thought it was a kind of that's all right so we're talking about this tonight were actually talking about UFO's specifically this coral. You'll fall landing incident with our guest Kevin Randle but we Kevin's web site is Kevin Randle it's just like it sounds dot Blogspot. Dot com you can go there and Kevin. It's it's kind of an opportunity that website is kind of a place where you offer just kind of things you think about right. I yes I have to have some kind of mode he can do that a posting up but it also visit by a lot of people on both sides of the if the question you about skeptics visit there and true believers is essentially we get. An interesting discussions that we've been doing one with the according helicopter Saturday from 1973. Helicopters saw the object post them hover overhead and take off and some interesting stuff going on in we've been having along discussion about that the last few. These days about that which is kind of compelling uninteresting but an and it's not just UFO as I've done some stuff on the oak island. Excavations going on with the big treasure that supposedly kidnapped there in some other things like that that I find. Interesting. Myself so it's mostly UFO's but some other. Sort of esoteric things as well. Jimmie and I are costly taught him a field Allen and how each episode and who because we love Michelle but each episode as a mother let conference. And that's and that's football. That's basically helps to get to big build up would we found the woman sort yacht to duplicate they made about forty years ago. We found a coin from 1694 approved the people here in 1694. Just lose somebody who edit points. The night before was what around on the island and drop it showed on the surface that they that they assign them. And a lot of people think about that I mean now Austin I'll reach in my pocket and have a penny from 1960 years something so it doesn't yet I mean. Doesn't mean that it's so yeah I totally understand that. One of the questions like kind of export on the blog is what was the cord is circulation package that timeframe I mean I've got a half dollar from 1855. So ill I tried forgot we're with a coin age. Was it was it that circulated well well like that back in those days like we have today or was it. Kind of in circulation for a year to and then it disappeared or what exactly what that I out on doubt that. One of the things is some of the coins are. Other data like 1694 but you were admitted many many years later it was based on the original design the original state. In actually found an archaeological paper and have a logical paper that he did a little bit of explanation about how if you found a corner associated with something you couldn't release dated from bad to date on the court. Yeah I would look at I look at all that the solid one of things we. I doubt that I have would recap. If they really annoyed me in an episode that recap it can be explained this is why am I going about this episode but which are absolutely right he would. Build up what we're gonna find this and as for the last season what we filed the muddy pit and all they were. They probably felt whether you would like the patient was we didn't find any treasures. I was always kind of a disappointment. Curry animal likes you rehashing things get meal or I did ID. Are looking at a town and I need as one more question about joke on before we move on to this topic do you think there's something there haven't now. I think if there was something there it's been a while it's long gone and I'm not sure there was everything. Do you think the original reports. Of what was what we're it was discovered there with the planks every ten feet that whole thing do you think that was legitimate or do you think that was just a hoax. I don't think with the Hulk I think it might have been on this identification was going on oh opening Julie Steele did a book that talked about. These films. Or what they called ship supplies that were built in the new world. Back in that timeframe. And some of what was found their scenes reminiscent of the kind of things they found him. North Carolina and South Carolina and had to do crying to our all of this sort of thing I think there was something there but I think it may have been just misinterpret hated. This interpreted. But yet again on the blog I I discussed all of that at some point in these type oak island into the search engine and we'll bring up all the articles I've done on oak island. Erik Kevin will grow we're gonna have as slick Eddie as schedule you come back on just talk about oak island at some point because that'll take a whole should play itself jail tonight both have a real interest and it's a little bit more and oh I think you're right I figure I'd argue let's go back to the sykora and it incident. I wanted. Talk about other witnesses we know that money's tomorrow is the key witness to this whole event but was. Whether anybody else that witnessed what happened. Here's one of the really get going things about the coral caves. A couple friends of mine that mark and Tony and yell when I had my radio program we were talking about this he says that if we witnesses it called the police department out. The thing in the sky. Well this is after but before landing the more often sought thing in the sky is the same same date minutes before. And I I act like three or four times did you did you see the police lottery due to the police blotter and regatta satisfactory answer that. Felt that kind of spurred my interest in looking at more information on calls signing and I found a document written by Richard Alter is that captain came out from the army. That very night. Either very laid on the 24 the very early on between now. And in that report he says that the police dispatcher told that three people had called. Yeah about something in the sky saying this during the object to same. And what really annoys me is nobody followed up on the they could've found these people leave because they know the trajectory of the things a call like that big of a town back up that that era. They could have easily knocked out of Norton probably found it about those people who called in but other people would seem that they never bothered him that. We know there were additional witnesses because holder documented it back in 1964. And did you know this is what they called in about but they never tried to find them. Ray Stanford when he was down there in 1964 great effort was the nightcap guy national investigations there an air of Obama down there. And he was there. Not long after deciding. He says that he would have been in day out there was with the radio announcer a radio broadcaster. In a restaurant in the if they were talking to these two older women who says that they've heard the option. I federated to get their names and settling I think we'll be you know don't they aren't they will they be dead by now I'm thinking. Ya but if we get the city directory here's the map we might be able to figure out relatively maybe we'll find somebody even at this late date. That could help out. He didn't have the names so we we I could follow on that it. There was a fellow named opal blinder who work day. Code. Gas station near innings more like a travel. That are that we think of the daily. More than just a gas station even met back in 1964. And said the car from Colorado had stopped by to buy gas in the driver does something about that low flying aircraft that was about the money to Mora was. Involved with deciding as well. Because it was off of a follow his wife and what we've always. Thought the car with the green Cadillac from Colorado. The cost down the road he paid yet can't for the gas to there was no way to follow up on that either let you know here's another lost opportunity. And it finally there was a guy who called the radio I TV station Albuquerque to talk about it. And you never. They never found him either. Jerry Clark and some of his investigations in talking to some of the other people in the area. The guy and we I've got the name of the book in the name escapes me at the moment. Who think something's a few hours later that sort of backed descriptive of what money to Morissette but it was the same area. And feel from. From the military sergeant from the military using something the we have a couple of names but it. And it's associated with the timing of this thing but it wasn't. As as as close as those other witnesses I just talked about whose name tweeted. Oh it's no one of those. Bad things so we gather where other witnesses. And we can we get there well that's a wonderful thing and we can also say well it really does no good because we don't know who they are we can't get there are stories possible. Are we get a jump into a quick break here. When we come back I wanna open up the discussion about how does this particular landing incident and report compares to. Other such reports including what happened at Roswell. And. Phone lines are open numbers 8446877669. The suit Jason TV Chiarelli. When you see her for 687766. Manner guest tonight is Kevin Randle check on his web say Kevin Randle dot Blogspot dot com. He's the author of over a hundred books to one meter so are on UFOs and paranormal topics. Given this is again a short segment apologize for that the work of people find your books most easily. Of course didn't seem to be replacement deal. Kindle will have a two Hewitt a matter of seconds. But. Some of the books. Our. Print on demand book has that book I did call Bill Russell 21 century which came out of a year and a half ago. The print on demand books the you know you can get a hard copy of the as well but it's available Amazon and a lot of the books like at the coral book. Encounter in the desert those available to local bookstore. So in the couple minutes we've had here before the bottom of the hour break tell us about other. Or how this particular instances of coral incident rates when compared to other high profile landing cases and sightings. Because of the physical evidence and Leo witness. If you rate very highly so I strangest case admitted that some very good physical evidence associated with it. Other cases are. Not quite that good because they've they've lacked one of the element in this call is to be much better we have. We knew who the additional witnesses that would make it a much better case. There was a landing in Pittsburgh. And since. When they saw the that is the occupant as well as the craft single witness. Went back to the radio station where he worked dad told what he's seen me let out a few hours later conceded depression in the grass. In a field and things like that so that was that sort of thing but single witness. And in just not credible but it's one of the few in in the project blue book file that label has done identified. So. Normally when we have a landing Trace it's we really lacks some elements that. Make it really solid case sometimes the witnesses aren't very good sometimes lining traces entry could. With a squirrel cage we we've got a very solemn witness we've got very good script what was thought so it. It rate very highly when it's compared to other landing a Trace cases. We have about a manager for jumping to break. On wooten when you did a lot of work on Roswell as well as well and and can you give us a sense of the geography here what's the distance between Roswell and sykora. Hundred about a 120 miles. The problem is the road system him. New Mexico there's not a straight road the road to go from Roswell truth to coral and you end up on Israel well it's probably better now but twenty years ago I was really crappy two lane. Highway that was kind of crumbling so you'd you'd have a good road too low I think Kerry is also in the prepares also onto the interstate. 25 in the north to so called road was really really crappy. As the crow crow flies may go 120 miles something like. Interest and and really close. Are you so we're gonna take a break there's a lot more to come you listen to Jason Gigi and our guest is Kevin Randle. Mean she tune in will be back after this. It's called and walk besides. Opening the door to breathtaking world of animal consciousness wisdom. And what animals understand about life from what they understand about us on the move and nervous about that. Now I it would be if a vision anyways but when similar argument declared Johnson lucid dreaming expert. Talk about mindful and lucid dreaming light greens aren't Portman how to lose treat some itchy to an end. Yeah great programs coming up we've got a great one tonight to Kevin Randle a Ph.D. retired lieutenant colonel website is Kevin Randle dot Blogspot. Dot com a lot of books to his credit which could find. On Amazon. In Kevin our time is gonna run short these shows always goes a very very quickly someone already asked that you promise you come back on and we can talk about oak island we can talk about your foes who you talk about anything because you can talk about anything. Yeah I am very eloquent. Let's talk golf have a lot of course that's terrific let's talk about the insignia a little bit. Was there ever any determination. I mean obviously this is an alien craft would probably have no idea what the insignia was or what it meant but it hasn't been speculation on that. The problem is that single sample and and we don't have a context we don't have any way of putting together in an alien language. Or communications system would be by definition alien and we though if you're trying to crack the code. You know the language it's in or something like at this clue that you can pick up but it when you're dealing with an alien language I think the best example of this as. During the Second World War with the code talkers. There were. I I think the utopia Indians the squawking here in Iowa where used that code talkers as well here's a language that. That code it's it's a foreign language and the Japanese were never able to break any of those coats simply because it was foreign language and they had a whale. They had nobody could speak and you like which is no way they can because what was being said I think the same thing would apply to an alien language we have a symbol on on the craft. I would call that I called the umbrella symbol that was sort of our. Within arrowhead pointing up into the arc of a line across the autumn in bright red and I think that a lot of divorce and it was about to bite to two feet by two feet. In the got a very good look at it as they say he wrote down the symbol of the moment the craft was thought he wrote down the similar later on that ninety to a I'm kind of an egg shaped object in the group the symbol on it is we have a good idea of what he'd seen and what it looked like. But there's no way to determine. What it meant. You have referenced earlier that. Money may have been disliked by some of the students in the area because he would give them speeding tickets and it is job. But there was at one point some speculation and maybe this was a hoax perpetrated by some of those students it seems way too elaborate for us. For high school prank. But was there any evidence to support that it was that just speculation. There was never any real evidence supports high school and but there's a technical school. Mining mining and technical school. You afford their four year college there in coral which is apparently good school. And they're supposedly wanted to see them. A group of students who like to play pranks on people like this but again. There was there was no evidence of it in hi nick. Gallup Hinrich who was the air force investigator a consultant on you opposed. Knew the president of the the I think school there at the time and they sat down and talked about it he says there was no way urge students were all later on a guy named Colgate. Became the president there and he suggested to Linus Pauling. That that he thought the students has had a it was the student has. Created some kind of price but he never explained how was and or anything like that and there's really no solid evidence given. One wanting to more saw. The burning bush that was left behind is smoking bush left behind. Win and champ as the bodies aboard Trent walked up to it put his hand on anyone who wore it was smoking. There was no war meant there was never any evidence of an accelerant around there how they might have that the bush on fire or anything like at the album landing gear. Races were not activated they were pressed into the soil so it's suggested something. It was very heavy has it landed there and created the indentations so the evidence that it was some kind of student vote that really doesn't hold much as. Who hold much water. While it seemed it's easy useful way beyond the capability yet and also seems as if it was a hoax at some point one of the students involved would've come forward because it you know the whole. But I guess the whole pay off a hoax like that is to say hey I pray and joy hope Steele. I'm and you believed it and I'm assuming nobody ever came forward said they were part of a hoax. No one has ever gone on the record I have a friend Tony Dahlia whose a proponent of the hole. Idea and he says what he's talked to a guy who says he was part of a very he knew people who were part of that and he was always gonna get in touch with the guys but that's never happened. I think the real point here is. There would have been evidences of the hoax there. Because blonde tomorrow would it seems something there would have been evidences of other car tracks around the area footprints from the student studying the whole thing out. And it would supposedly. The student wanted to do it to get even with volleys are more so I think that they'll. Once little bit more got all the publicity about seeing the line saw some distance market value so badly that he was. You could even if he would joke when he displayed when it was being played on human. Because they never did that you know that that idea that was giving even the lines of war just never never release her. I wanna move the conversation to some more general questions about what's going on in the UFO community right now or at least have the view followed you community. As on the whole are sightings increasing or decreasing staying about the same. As far as what's being reported. There's I think the the number exciting if they reported has been increasing. But the problem is that something the call flock and I talked about a number of times they don't seem to be the same kind of robust sightings we got in the fifties and the sixties. The forties and 50s60s. You know it's. Bill respectable like in the sky and that sort of thing. Not the really kind of robust sightings we as a multiple witnesses and landing traces of all of that sort of thing gathered some of that going on but certainly not. The whale was in the past I think that's one of the problems there was through the saudis in 1973 I think it started around the and the September of 97 between what it the first week of November. But I think we period in 1973 is also rate. Walked up there about people in the craft on the ground lot of people think occupies all of that kind of stuff going on. Always struck me is the way we would do an investigation if we were looking at another planet and it had some kind of dissent the end. Life for audit gathering as much information as we could and then going home to analyze and put the grad students. Figuring out what was going. But we don't really see that kind of thing. In today's environment and I don't know whether it's we've become more sophisticated. So that we that. Looking at that thing is this the way we were in the past or if we just don't have the visitation that we had a one timer or something like that I'll. I think the answers like it has kind of twofold you know I think there's more fighting going on I think Peter Davenport it is you'll over. Reporting that there is is blocking force settings and move farther logging more exciting but there. Pretty generic like this guy. I think is not really a lot of good. Sightings of the craft on the ground as a creature from inside the. Well in this day and age where technology has really excelled. Everybody's gotten video cameras built on their phones and I let alone Nara military technology. I'm sure that there is big reasons for these things not to be around as often as they used to be but also with that being said. Any footage that is cause that is put Al their. Really needs to be scrutinized stay NH because like we're talking about earlier I mean all these phone Hampson. And everybody being able to just you know Corey things on their phone or on their computer that aren't really there and then put it online and hopes to make a viral video. That's definitely a big issue these days correct. Oh absolutely and I think any. That the capability of people who to create these things is just incredible. From my rough at these created. Oh really crappy looking UFO when he did it on purpose so it is never beat. Considered to be true but he created a video of of an object flying around this guy nearest home. We've all look at the comment on the back of my god what would condemn the and that sort of thing. The show how easy it be done and you look at the level it's clearly. You know something if he's made up but he didn't merely to show how easy it could be done and with a little bit of effort it could be a very credible video. I think some of the movie footage that was taken in the 1950s on sixteen millimeter cameras those would have been incredibly difficult to say back in the 1950. And there's there's two good films one in Montana more than Utah that were taken at. There were very good and I I don't think there's really been a good explanation for either one of the but in today's environment it just so we get I would think but I would like it is video from several locations like independent. Photographers which we should be able to come up with as. The we can analyze the motion of playing the direction movement saying the the guy is the altitude it was operating and the and the speed we can gather a lot of very important information if would he get. Two or three video from two to three different locations of same object about the same time which witnesses who didn't know one another. That hasn't happened yet and I'm a little bit surprised given. Number of cellphones with absolutely wonderful can't mention the we should be able that we should find something like that at some point. I think that's the most frustrating point is that so they're more cameras. Of high quality capabilities walking around. Everywhere at this point in their ever has been and we still can't grab something good. He how a couple and quick to generic questions here there's been a lot of talk about. Pieces. Alien or UFO bases whether there's some training and are some Oceanic do you believe any of that discussion or have you looked into it at all. I back in the then 1980s I looked into some of that. I'm but I couldn't find any solid evidence we've got some testimonies that are less than credible. We've got an awful lot of people coming forward telling these sorts of stories now. In fact. According to one group of people I actually served on Mars. We didn't really go to Iraq those those two words. Two. And in that war we were we were sent to Mars the fight the wore on there and then when we came home our minds were. Why do we were planted with these new memories of that sort of thing which is absolutely look at. Yeah I. I want to see some good evidence I wanna see some. Something that I can I can look at something he said well you know. Here is where one of the places where you can go there and you can look at some of the remains of it or something like that we just don't have. That kind. Evidence available for us we have some people who tell some wonderful stories that they just that crept up. And one more thing that pops into the news every now and then is the International Space Station and the video feeds coming from and how. The mysteriously seemed caught off when an object appears or doesn't appear whatever happens to be any thoughts on that. I'm Doug Becker. Has done a lot of work on some of that stuff especially. With the shuttle program and some of the footage taken from there NAFTA supposedly as. Completely transparent but I understand the math the channel which is to be alive if he is now delayed. So they can they can drop out something that becomes very mysterious. I really don't I really don't know. I've got vaccines and stuff that is very very interesting and I know the capabilities. Of cameras. That we have the military have. Is. Just unbelievable as well. So we should be able we should be able to get something and that NAFTA should be able to produce something that they don't seem to wanna. Delve too deeply into view a full field and I think that might be. They're worried about our fund their funding getting. Diverted into UFO research is supposed to where they would like. I would like to take a moment justice thank you for your service by the way we didn't do that the beginning of the program I know you've served and quite a few theaters in quite of few roles. That is impressive and and we thank you for that. What are some of the next front seemed you've got on your slate. I've been working on the court helicopter case of the last few days because I got dragged into it got upon that a fellow has offered a series that it was a refueling aircraft that was. I'm mistaken for a UFO buy them by the helicopter crew that there's some problems with that and we've been in discussions with that I've had to have an opportunity in your views one of the crew members from the helicopter that talk of military people involved in refueling operations. They get an idea whether the serious audible or not when it was quite kind of working on Matt and I are working on a book called the wound up conspiracy moved out was a project that began in 1957. Which was to recover. Recurring space debris of foreign manufacturer unknown origin you know org and of course covers the awful component. And we have learned that it transcended into project blue book in 1950 the official air force investigation. In 1985 the name would compromise which is why we talk about who does. And then they would change and it's part is that. The last letter we heard about that the new name and promptly classifieds we don't know what the new project is but as we talk about these things we find more and more classified. Studies of you oppose I just discovered something in Louisville into the book I have and have meant to them on my blog called operation or slide. Which was in another. Investigation run out of Wright Patterson air force base to send as investigator trained investigators do. This study UFO sightings I just learned about that. In the last couple months and I'd I don't remember reading anything about this anywhere it was buried in the yeah. Project blue book. Administrative files. And try to learn more about that sort of thing but I mean clearly that the project existed or they attempted to fund the project existed. And I'd like to learn more about that so Leo that's kind of what I'm looking now. Given we've had. Yes several presidential administrations. Come and go and frequently they float things like we're going to. Released documents and we're going to release information there's going to be disclosure we really haven't seen anything. But it's changed the discuss discussion much will lead do you think anytime soon from the federal government. I don't think so. I think I think the only way we're gonna get disclosure is if the alien creatures land. Oil or paper river entrance of the Pentagon to kind of prove their existence Atlanta Washington DC here. Maybe Landon. Public lands in Las Vegas just for the hell of it because we. Like in what they announced their presence. I don't that the government has no motivation to reveal anything that they may have we know they have stuff hidden away in a good. I have to fight documents and things like that were always getting hints about android. Blundering in and maybe it like we found out about moon dust because of a border. State Department released a budget document under fully up to Robert Todd and it was talking about bone dust it would Melinda. And and and the cap thing there is. The project blue book files which with the officials that he were released publicly in 1970 sex and it was like. Thirty years later. I discovered by go I was looking working. The government UFO files both. And I was I was searching for a certain case on the microfilm. In the word move that caught my attention and I stopped and found more cases of the project blue book dial in September of 1960. There label Buddha. The than they would bear forced a fine. If we've been look but you know we've got 121000 fighting and I don't know how many pages of of this. Material to go through and in those of that's not just turns up later the same way I've found that. Operation or flying information. And well we we're out of time. Kevin we appreciate you joining us and sharing all of this great information listen mica I said there were definitely wanna have you back at some point actually thanks so much for coming in analyst Kevin and we look forward to talking again in the near future. What do you have my telephone number importantly you can touch with me. We will use it so you have a great night IQ. And don't forget the don't forget the books are available on Amazon and also check out the website Kevin Randle dot Blogspot dot com. I were to take a break come back wrap things that this is Jason GDP under alienated. Thanks for its. Books. Appreciate you joining us whose mind or as a download we just what have you with us you know real quick when you Colin you wanna talk about you you also experienced don't say you don't wanna be on air anymore levees and how many do we had a ton of calls doing that tonight and right that's gonna do it for us you listen to Jason GB beyond reality radio may she tune in tomorrow catch old man. And I don't know ingredients taste good Jason Hanson GB Jackson into this one I'll simply tell students who didn't. It's an normally you don't really read news. Yeah. You know stuck on her face in the agency hello Hayden sent inspectors will Jackson household and she's supposed to attempts to TV Johnson following. TV chief paranormal if you talk to be just on beyond Rio Rio or you have a suggestion for guest contacts with Eddie Edwards at slick Eddie Edwards at gmail.com be short visit our chat room as well I'd beyond reality review dot com thanks for listening.