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Talking Religion 9-2-07

Sep 26, 2007|

Talking Religion 9-2-07

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Good morning you're about to listen to talking religion thank you for joining us at this delightful hour here on Boston's talk station WRKO. My name is reverend -- Asner and I'm the host of talking religion. I'm a member of the united church of Christ in the Newton clergy association and presently holds forth as a -- at prudential town and country in Wellesley. Talking religion is a talk show like no other in the Boston area. During this hour you'll hear the voices of our Muslim Jewish and Christian panelists. As they share their views and values at the crossroads where religion politics and culture meet. Here with me today we -- don't -- -- -- to have back when plants father while to kunin who is Catholic chaplain to students at brandeis welcome home. Thank you -- it's good to be you know Amanda great summer going to. -- isn't a reason just where my family traveling in Spain and Italy of course from them. So we had to be back that's nice nine you're here for a laugh I'm here for awhile school isn't such as kinda down tied down well for a little while. It that's how -- to a -- an older priest. Every genuine round trip he always it's in cars back and say in search of souls all over the world -- I always good to have you came. We'll get back to little more than it was kind of brandeis wear -- so happy to have with -- doctor Larry Lowenthal executive director of the American Jewish Committee. And as those of you who missed the last couple of weeks. You might not know that doctor Larry Lowenthal is our new panelist on the show ends. Rabbi -- -- bird has decided to retire lo these many years and regretfully but he will Biondi told us from time to time he'll come back right now he's got a full played and trying to retire but. And I don't get the feeling he's trying too hard. But so Larry where really happy to have you back and know that you just been on a special trip which we will get to either this week or next week that I was as always delighted to -- And filling in for our those in our Muslim chair an issue region Hussein and -- -- -- -- Mahmoud Jaafari who are not with this is mr. -- mean seven Togo. -- from the Islamic institute of Boston where he serves as director of public relations and he's been on our show many times but it's been quite a royal welcome back. Thank you very much is too great to rebound and so normally home to all the business that's nice thing well I'm going to turn to the panel as a whole I don't know whether you have. And following along but there's been a little bit of shake up. With the anti defamation league especially here in Boston. Around the issue of the Armenian genocide. And know that -- we've spoken about this on past shows many many times and I would have to say in all honesty that. The rabbis have generally then. In agreement that. the Holocaust stands alone and no other genocide it's. While their horrible and tragic don't aren't in the same category shall I say that includes sure wanted Darfur and you know Croatian -- that that hold -- feet you know terrible tragic thing and it's it's always give me is fearing that. The the Holocaust and it. I'm just gonna get so beyond messages say has been kind of put on a pedestal and everything else that was around it isn't quite as important so I've been following this this controversy of lifting up the Armenian genocide recognizing it's. Or at least trying to recognize it as a very important thing to a lot of people because millions of people died just because they were Armenian and during Ottoman empire. And I just wondered what it's what the panel thought of that how do we. Do we prioritize -- sides or is genocide genocide. Well I think you know its controversial thing not just with the Armenian genocide but. In United Nations for example there are. Consequences of something is determined to be a genocide as compared to just a terrible tragedy I mean this on steroids Steve was Lazarus take. But I am I believe I could be wrong but I believe enough to know for example what is happening in Sudan. Has not been called genocide officially by the United Nations because of implications of that would mean that. Either way the sanctions or some they would have to come into effect and certain governments. Support sedan more than others so I think all of these issues including an Armenian the issue of that. The ME DL men and their stance on it. It's it's not done out of cold. And coldness to other Genesis of -- the they're political issues when you name something that a certain way it has consequences. And I mean I myself was happy to see the he deals were reversed its position longstanding. And two. To recognize that the the genocide of the Armenian people but it is of course complicated because. Turkey is a very strong ally than in the states and Israel. It's -- some Muslim country were Jewish people -- feel very comfortable going to and I can understand the reluctance to. To her upset Turkey who have been that way and who knows it was a terrible thing the Armenian genocide. In Turkey -- came back from Turkey this summer. It's such a sensitive issue that you really. You can hardly discuss it in who I was on a program any university and soon as we mentioned at different times we meaning people from outside Turkey and the Turkish members of our group you could just see desist complete shutdown. And these are all educated people they not to personally they don't tonight what happened there means but. They see. I don't they they don't like other people coming -- from outside. Sued saying what that what happened there and they have their own understanding and I mean if you touch their means of course you have one approach to address the Turks they would say it was more there were a lot of people killed in. I mean they're not totally denying me and the nothing happened but they would Timor is a struggle that went on between the two peoples. So I guess I think things -- they'll learn by being in Turkey is that. Nothing is quite as simple as it seems who was easy for us here in the states to say yes it was a genocide on his -- -- a lot of Armenians in this country. I don't know it. It's -- come on these things are very complex and it's sort of depends on who's in which Seton who. Who's got the power to declare these things et cetera. And I think his story complicated as I'm not sure even in the US congress. Whether the congress will pass legislation that is pending and believe. Two Neiman officially isn't genocide I don't know if the votes are all there or not it's even in our own congress -- -- There's some debate over this so I can understand why the Diaw had issues with a person I was glad that they. -- by the meaning community I think it was a step. Then because now I always had that feeling myself a little bit that that the Holocaust. Because it was this a tragedy there was always as a reserve and sometimes in Jewish community to. To make any other tragedy even like it pianist probably they're probably isn't anything equivalent to it. But so I thought that this was a good step although I can see the controversy and I still think it's controversial and certainly in Turkey and I think in the levels of high levels of the United States and in the United Nations again with -- I think that we should not collect the definition of the -- itself. Drive or outrage against the killing of human beings what are we quoted him as anything else. In the history of one kind of people were killed. When you think about the -- I -- -- seven million people were killed. The massacre of nine came in China 300000 people we think about Cambodia two million people were killed we think about why I'm there. Recently a 100000 people were killed. And we're talking about powerful now what are we calling genocide or human beings that you killed from a religious perspective it's an acceptable. We shouldn't wait until it was classified something the other so. We from a most of them prospective as the most of them if one human being is killed. For the wrong reason for the reason that they believe in this -- formed if ethnic group it's an acceptable completely and took. And he chewed all of us as human beings should condemn classifying it would we classified by the number of people killed. If we do within the Ukrainian found -- -- -- to be sent to have claimed about seven million people. It and so we should all condemn what happened in Armenia nobody denies it they claim the dominion site claims that there -- wolf Armenians Turks killed. -- and -- -- that doesn't make it genocide but people were killed that's period and that's totally unacceptable and we should all condemned and. Strongest components and notes. Very good point in even argue is never good question. About competing victims nations just came back from Poland will talk about this perhaps next week. -- you haven't indeed two conflicting narratives. About what happened during those early years of polish narrative and you have the Jewish. Polish tired and very very different but I think your point again as well taken nobody denies that they were unspeakable horrors that occurred. During the years 1915 to 1920 to a belief I grew up in as I've mentioned on this program before with a mother. Who was alive during that time amongst Jewish people particularly in New York City the phrase the starving Armenians was very commonplace if you didn't finish the food on your plea. My grandmother would -- and you remember the starving Armenians. So that's been incorporated into my own sensibility as well and I always been very sensitive to this and we've had. Very powerful relations the American Jewish Committee here in Boston with the Armenian leadership. For at least -- and a two years you know I don't want to get into the strategic complexities that have led to this very frustrating impasse that has been so. Upsetting to the Armenians and so many of the people who seen as a very clear cut moral issue. But fears unfortunately organizations nations even individuals -- roasting court in Britain. Situations that -- strategic necessity what's -- against clear cut to morality the Armenians if they were called upon to say anything critical let's say that Iran they couldn't do it. If friends of the Armenians who came through for them asked him to. Condemns some of the crazy statements by Ahmadinejad they couldn't do it because without Iran. Armenia is totally cut off from the world. They're totally blockaded and they would literally almost starved to death who worked for brands cooperation and opening up some of the border. So it this is so cool facts. And the whole phenomenon of what occurred with the radio it's going to take awhile to release settle down let them. You know it's it's it's complex it's conflict -- It's extremely upsetting and again I can only say -- regional director I am not the national director of the American Jewish Committee and I don't said. Policy -- mighty pretty too highly. Complex strategic negotiations that take place at them at the highest level Turkey is a nation of 70 million people it's got a powerful economy extremely powerful military in the hands. Very ample water resources which are desperately in need of course in the in the Middle East their military's strategic alliance with the United States from what I understand is far far greater than anybody could possibly imagine. So I hope. Ultimately you know the moral position prevails I -- the Armenians are acknowledged to have suffered -- certainly. But any definition would finally conclusion you genocide colossal to. It's it's just. Very very painful situation that at this point it's just well on the final is on hand and to me just make one little comment you know and -- here -- principal moral principles and political imperatives -- harsh. People in the religious community -- lead you to. Too damn. -- this of the -- you know that's what people -- for a supposed to do. So if we agree to take things by numbers I was opposed an African descent. I would also raised the issue of people who were imported from slavery. Over 30 million people supposed to have been killed during the middle path okay this is an important fact of history not because it happened 300 years should not make us forget it but it's also -- fact. -- three billion million people this is what's on estimates put it. The who. I can also includes a native Americans and that well and I ended genocide is our -- and now it's true. We should not just that take their term and from their political term and -- diplomacy creation and exclude. All the miseries that have happened to human beings indeed. But I think the issue that also ties this all together I mean I would agree on to present that these are all tragedies and business people of faith we. It -- speak against it and hopefully to not will not allow them to happen. But tied up in this is the other side is you know even the way history is written because -- he used to say his vision rather than the ones who win the wars. And if you look at textbooks how textbooks described things and this is a big discussion in the world today. You have completely different or sometimes different narratives what happened. I notice for example now in Israel they are undergoing any revision of textbooks I believe in high school level I'm not sure exactly. Describes the with the coming of the city of Israel in different terms. Terms what happened to the Arab but only within the air balloon near schools -- -- this a step another it is a recognition. That the general narrative. Whether you're in the on the Arab side of it or the Israeli side of it. -- written differently it's true the United States if you read most textbooks about World War II. There's very little attention given to what the Russians -- It did sacrifice the Russians far outstrips what happens the United States. And we -- we probably will what you could have been lost it to look at those terms without Russia and defeating the Nazis what they did. Because again everyone racing's out of -- look at the controversy in Japan about there. Horrendous time in China and with the did with Korean women so it's really big problem how are you because this is your your training to young people. In many of the in many Muslim countries in the Middle East there is no reference to Israel has not even a map all the maps to they would do it doesn't show on the map. And so in and we're everyone is guilty to some extent of these kinds of the way we describe things but that's the way people take meaning so -- I think one of the things that we all need to be involved with as a person persons of faith -- To try to help. In the way things are taught and handed on to our young people I was a project a while ago with some people so Muslim leaders who were. Trying to work for example in the country by Jordan. To rewrite the way that the textbooks are are. Either Jordan has relationships -- Israel now still in the textbooks is a very hostile description and in the same with them slavery most of us growing up -- we and we knew -- slavery we knew was that. We had no awareness regime sends -- 30 million. The -- but all this stuff that's come out of a middle passage in the programs we have in our schools helps us to. -- helps a little bit to be more sensitive but. So I think that on the one hand you have the human tragedy which we certainly a quarter. But the complexity is how do we how do you get added that even talk about tragedies and because there's so many different narratives over the same issue. But you know again having just come back from Poland this something complex going on here is certain -- certain things cooled. A national identity nations have a certain perception of themselves. That do you rise out of their interpretation of history. And when you challenge -- national perception you aren't challenging something that goes to the the very soul of the nation. Now I've dealt with Turks on the issue of Armenia and it is unbelievable it is frightening. It is. They rational and that they get apoplectic and I I had an encounter with them with the Turkish ambassador to the United States about eight years ago. Who simply stock for eliminating he he -- so -- in a totally under diplomatic control because somehow you're assaulting there highest censor themselves. Turkey Poland. At the United States has certain self perception national recession that has finally gotten compromised if you really don't move a little too deeply. Into the American Indian and the quality of black African. -- -- every nation every nation France. When -- that film came out pollution granite -- PTA and he didn't sorrow and the pity them. Challenging the French perception of their role during World War II holes French and Haitian -- why field. It was like an insult to the very soul of friends to. Two to assert that the resistance was very limited. That -- French collaboration was very extensive. -- that the French rounding up of 46000 Jews to be killed was. An obvious historical statistical reality and yet somehow this violated. France's -- so. And that that is understandable that's why it Rio on -- so called true cold talking religion. Where a lot of reflection on these issues take place in the churches and synagogues and mosques. In reference with the holy scripture is that where are down to us. And goes -- true scriptures many of whom ignore those national board. Who cut out all of us as Christians Moslems -- And and I think that gives us -- responsibility to read and interpret these things in the right way. If as Moslems Christian or Jewish clergy members we that the political dimension to that. That's muzzled -- then we could be failing old -- as religious leaders. And I think that's ultimately we'll have an attachment to. It country ACP in neighborhood. But I think all of better -- who broke -- -- is that off religion. That as the it most of them relate to and -- them ultimately to another Christian and it. To do which will -- human beings so our national boundaries. Should not prevent people coming from a religious point of view. To accept and on them what is really. So lesbian which you're really talking about I think maybe when everybody's telling you that is that are we had a prophetic role as people of faith. Two and and and proud as we know that profits life was not one that any of us would particularly choose if we look at what they had to go -- on the other hand. It seems to me that that's what our -- call us to do is not to be you know in the center of the party high but to be on the edges you know shouting from the wilderness. And and saying look people here's what's happening. I here's what we're missing here's a guy his kindness to and but that's not so easy to do. Well this is going to be the problem Walter what if Pope pious the 12 is elevated at some point to absolute saint go to her canonization. Because our perception of his role during those holocaust years was that he put politics. And pragmatic considerations ahead of his role as these supreme religious leader. On the Catholic universe. That's our. I didn't listen I mean there are many cafes of course we're hoping that this. Process will not go that far. And part of the reason why he's being advance his political within the Vatican because. They're confident they're real conservative groups that want him as they move John between third forward to. But that's another -- -- but this issue of the read religion and then in the state. Of course the mean America is a great example we don't officially have a state religion. But we do have a civil religion's highly and that the Protestant faith to sort of came with the European settlers has informed of this country. And there are many churches -- tough to Christians -- -- example who are very very supportive of the US government and so many ways in fact maybe even determine in in some subtle ways the policy. Of the country not always not always I think for Christian purposes I mean I think a lot of what drove toward Iraq. Comes out of of the very evangelical Christian view of the world. You know we have the truth then we're bringing the truth to these. Poor benighted souls guns that conflagration of good and evil -- it's a very complicated thing many churches. To cover while. But I think -- evangelical thing is copper for what in the -- -- -- for going and going in for awhile. What do you minutes but it the religion helps to two. To give that sanctions mean you look at so many churches they'll have American flags and -- -- say they could be and how you look at it but. Almost every Catholic school was built in this country on the outside this is for god and country. As a Catholic Church in America wanted to show the US government. They were not attached to Rome they weren't loyal Americans because they were always considered the second time I met this guy -- a seek. Welcome -- resentment over as they were the German you know. And in this enormous American flag in the Senate has carries -- you they keep that flag because her because there was prejudice against while he's not a Muslim and anybody who looks different. -- because it. Religion is often even even in countries in a state religions is often tightly into it remember the Falklands war okay England and Argentina. At the end. The archbishop of Canterbury insisted that the memorial service in saint Paul's whoever once in London that there be a prayer for the Argentinian. Sailors and soldiers were killed. Well Margaret Thatcher almost -- -- whatever happened the night. Because how could you pray for enemy. People in so the whole connection state and church or what are these church to mean any kind of religious group. I'm because image is go on -- in Muslim countries to use the how that works is very very powerful but we should not think that somehow because we have separation of church and state in this country. There isn't heavy influence of religion society. In my opinion sometimes for good sometimes for bad. On as many listeners know. We take these shows ahead of time and today happens to be reinstated 20 ninth it were taping and it is the third anniversary of the tragic events of in Louisiana and Mississippi because of hurricane Katrina as far as I can tell Mississippi is in much better shape in terms of recovery of homes and businesses and schools. I'm not quite sure why but New Orleans lags pathetically behind. Maybe it's because there's more to do I just I just don't know but in seeing some of that news reports in beating articles. Mississippi is is getting on its feet a lot faster. I'm sure you've been following statistics in the paper and the difficulty people have been having getting their insurance claims. Which to me is just a moral outrage not to mention that the FEMA trailers. Apparently now I can't quite remember whether it was that there's something with a foam that's contaminating the inside and so even hear these people who. You know their last refuge is not even a safe haven. And the moral and ethical issues that surround this tragedy that has changed forever changed millions of lives are enormous. And I'm wondering what they thought since the panel. Our. You know then. I'm fascinated by the incredible difference between competent management and incompetent management. Something went drastically wrong and -- dealing with the hurricane to begin with and dealing with the aftermath. Again I'm not a public administrator I'm willing into a runner six person office and you know that's that's a huge challenge so I have. Nothing but -- and admiration for people who run countries and massive bureaucracies that something's just wrong in the administration this huge cataclysmic disasters something's just wrong and I'm not an analyst Amanda. He later boom but I can't come to any other conclusion. I think something has to be I think there's a connection and I don't know from an expert. That is a piece here that's -- the race to no one's black town and you know that's America's biggest problems for -- vacancies racism. And and but for years even prior to -- to Katrina it was terribly poor. A lot of corruption in the political system and a lot of money was pledged to go there is not an Internet -- and there ought to work on the levees had never happened. It was always overlook you can just say they just happen and I think it's. Is indicative of an neglect him also the disregarded. People of color in general and I don't think New Orleans would be in is still listen tough shape in many parts of it and of course the white parts of the parts for tourism are often running. He make sure you -- -- here put this isn't an exercise but the other -- -- -- why we can't I mean we can put. The men on the moon and we can do all kinds of stuff why we can't get. Some and they were just disorganization is is -- involving. -- our talent as Americans generally to be able to organize and put things together. So clearly I think it's it's deep rooted I don't know I just. Here it is because this morning I was listening to in -- There was a report about a woman President Bush met there one of its previous trips. And they had to pledged that she would make called bull. Dish for him in her home and two did they interviewed that woman and decisions mean -- idea and she just got a check. So she could not have that continue when President Bush the most powerful man in the world promise just have a house somewhere and Louisiana. So it it is in little -- lewis' little thing but it hits it ones who -- Walter was saying if we really have what lines to make this solve this. We certainly can I mean if you look at the the massive effort to take equipment and people form here Iraq. It is amazing. It is amazing what he militant was able to do the same American people would miss him talent couldn't we apply it just a couple of always I don't know who I agree with Walter in that there's I think is a huge racial component here and and I'd be willing to put down every paycheck for the rest in my life. In saying dad if it's the areas affected had not -- of the poor people but had banned the casino owners and the you know direct it who in you know the big business exacts. Bohemia those bases would be up and met those levees would be and I think there's what -- a hundred more miles worth or something like that. Even now that it's a rich people lived in that area that place to be revived. Poor people don't vote have a tendency not to vote. So even if you're in a democracy -- which sits out into. Power groups in a non programs from one good thing I was listening to what some ratio the anniversary of Katrina. What he had to bring out in America with the loads of church and synagogue groups in -- -- religious groups kids' college kids and they went their to cash to work on the premise. You know group from hello which is the Jewish campus ministry. The last winter another group calling this year and -- From all over the country this -- mean people were trying to I think makes some difference but decision that's from teachers groups can't rebuild levees and you can have. But they can't help in little ways I mean the national council of churches has mobilized to get people parent. And I have seen stories you know -- like Good Morning America where people absolutely for the smallest things will break down and cry. To say she's somebody who doesn't even know me. Sent me a bed I think it's it's it's that desperate there that'd be. You know we have such a short memory Wheatley is something happens we try to address -- in the media and then you know as time goes by it it just gets pushed farther back and Andy's ever forgotten people that we've really half to keep before us the and I think you know -- we shouldn't let the government's reaction -- of that the fact that there where people went okay. Who went down and help. And people who are not seen in Americans whom many parts of the world who did send. Resources in fact recalled but in -- which is one of the poorest countries in the world. That there was an effort to collect money to send down here. Collected some money in the -- who took it to the American Embassy the ambassadors that I simply have no week. To receive this month and and so he fledgling sense -- we cuts. So that a lot of -- so little people I talk to people on the plane I slept next to someone. We left his job and went down there it white person to help. So called government's failure he's not a failure of old people mobile white people who really really win that and we had one awful. Major medical you do is you who took a jail down I was listening to him on the radio. If you weeks ago he left the very prestigious position here in Boston -- going down to examine to build. Health care system so people like that this attitude should also be -- weeks of conflict to all of us that so many people didn't Israel's human beings is confronted by race. And we just need to -- we just need to keep it if forests and houses there are a lot of people who still need still need help this thing labor day weekend and that we might discuss some -- more on ethical issues involving workers in our nation including. Those immigrants who worked so hard to keep our economy going with a little or no reward often with no health care. And if they're illegal immigrants their kids are even going to be going to our. Colleges and hand probably like you get through high school. I'm wondering how the panel sees the state of the union regarding waivers and particularly in contrast with those workers in the upper echelons. Of whose greed we have recently been made painfully aware not only. Recently recently but within the last few years. This language thing about that well I think globalization has completely diminish the power of the American worker. -- just. -- getting around that simple blunt fact. And when I was growing up workers and we're making good -- It was getting good salaries working in factories and plants and foundries. And all that has shifted to other countries -- operate a foundry here when you can. Open up a place in India or do business in China and pay workers pennies compared to what you -- them here. And there's no going back you can't reverse the power of globalization. Unions who talks about unions anymore in this country it's it's it's an anachronism. I don't know -- people who belong to unions. When I was growing up the Teamsters union the the CIA and the FO AFL CI TO interesting I -- -- CIO. Powerful powerful American institutions now people are getting paid -- minimum wages 47 million people reported in today's paper without any insurance health insurance in the United States. That's about 1618% of the entire population snack then it's it's a system that these vast improvement. I also think the when it seems to be the increasing gap between haves and have nots view on the X. Extraordinarily high salaries that's his CEOs and others and the lower levels is -- -- use word of steam that's very dangerous I think for. Because our country -- aren't in -- there was always been that you have this large middle class that basically makes a decent salary can to live -- kids. But more more is that's being eroded even though other factors that popular media control. This they would be very concerned about this you know our economy is still. -- one of the strongest in the world if you ask those few little feeling comfortable. And people are not secure and in their own feeling about the future many young people don't feel they're going to live better than their parents. So I think this labor day weekend it is an opportunity it. To reflect a little bit and -- you can't have everything has an article I think in the New York Times -- clear to me here. About we all want cheap things so we have the Walmart some minerals to buy everything from China made very cheaply. So yeah everything we have is cheap but of course. That when the medium low wages too because it if you don't have decent wages -- -- message has come from somewhere you do willing to pay for it. And also the social networks is in -- his Larry sizzling people uninsured as a very dangerous thing as we go forward because the the cohesion of the country is always partly shaped by safe economic foundation. When you have fear of either of banking system were no future you're gonna I don't remember much more trouble. Com. -- the the issue of the minimum wage on this on this -- area of the maybe could be when you look at minimum wage so is legally sanctioned salary. Beginning salaries. And in Boston if you get paid minimum wage you cannot TV. And that's what our government say is this is what you paid the people on the more indulgence however skip. He did suggest he's not enough. If you will for minimum wage something has got to -- don't -- you know we -- function X. We pay something salary doesn't allow them to have a housing -- how would those just basic minimum. If you get paid the minimum wage in Boston cannot pay for your rent. And powerful -- parts -- well I think even now with the housing market the way it is even people who make some decent money. I'm not going to be able to have houses anymore and it seems like our American dream so to speak. Is evaporating -- I. On the one hand. I you know I'm I'm saddened by it because I think everyone ought to have. -- home and the basic necessities and be able to bring their children up with enough resources to. You know 22 send them to school in close them and give them opportunities musical lessons in camp in this kind of thing. And at the same time I'm just wondering. An announcer speaking off the cuff here but. We've done very materialistic and I think to some degree. We've kind of become spiritually bankrupt because it now -- It's not -- -- I don't know at least the way where we're heading now doesn't seem like it's gonna sobbed. The gap between me they have some -- not site I think that's going to again. Even greater unless unless the government or unless weakness is people of faith stepped in and say hey. We're tired or sick and tired of the greed of these corporate. You know executives are these bankers or these mortgage people who just. Don't seem to care about people's lives in the implications they just want money cross the -- right away. Hi I just I think there's a materialism component in here that. That we really have to look at and and I think if people of faith don't speak up. Who's gonna do with people who are afraid now because. In order to -- correct the system a huge disparity in America between rich and poor which you warning. Moral assembly each month. You have to sooner or later talk about redistribution of of the national wealth. Immediately throws you back into the old days. Socialist ideology which has never gone down well in American culture. Ten days isn't isn't that incredible took the -- -- liberal has become so pejorative. That people are replacing it to -- only with progressive that you can't use the word liberal anymore because it make you look like some. Artifacts some anachronism from 888 the moribund pan. I think by liberal I'm happy to -- -- the majority owners who does socialist ideas and things this was wealth. One example -- the Bush Administration wants to 12 has passed the congress has approved tax reform which one piece of Madonna when it goes into effect doesn't know the year so. Will eliminate inheritance tax. -- to me that's a clear example the total gift to the -- inheritance tax only applies to the smallest segment of the population. Because there's a cap no matter what it is a million dollars something most people fall -- never have to pay it. The only ones that are super simple -- To eliminate that is is it foolish thing to me just keeps all his extra wealth in hands of funerals a small example he would transform everything. But as an example where you can make policy. Doesn't to make this into a socialist country but still there's no. Reason for that go into effect it's only going to -- affect one year mrs. -- voted again. So if you have lots of money you know fear whenever an -- isn't die than if you look at the but I don't think people could you know I think churches have to look also at some some religious communities do we pay -- workers to assuage. Who's do the women who run -- and programs in parish schools to they give in and 25000 spiritual benefits. -- figure salary upon which they can live -- -- serious question a lot of the Catholic world is built on. I don't know if you can do you volunteer work and that's fine as well. But it's a lot of those on very low salaries -- health care. Sometimes agreement in the church in Boston he required to do that but how you pay for I'm using. Everybody can be you can look at your own house and see what you can do there was. Same and -- Hebrew schools we will know in the Jewish community that he preschool teachers over. So low paid that very few people want to enter into that field. And as a result of quality preschool education which is never very elevated has certainly declined. But you're going back to that is that health business I ever this fascinating article. That they explored why France I -- we settle things -- France to Francis and number one country in the world. In terms of quality deliverance of health care to the largest quantity of people. We pay we spend something like 15 dollars occurred -- capital and I. Whereas they pay only ten friends spends only ten compared to our 15. And yet they deliver an infinitely better medical service than does the United States YE. Again it goes back to some elements of administration and proper distribution of resources. Is there any reason why -- doing so he better also paying only. European countries have in my opinion a greater sense of the common good. We are much more individually based our whole room from the beginning. And we were nervous about beneath common health insurance for everybody because yes you're wealthy if you're middle class you have health insurance you -- good medical care here. But to have so many be without it we have high infant mortality rate much -- -- all the developed countries. Because we as someone who are poor people to making -- doctor's. And you're right in France and -- also some tripping -- friends actually has a longer lifespan slightly and we do. And they -- so well so -- an ideal heights and a video that I. And I don't know maybe you can leave -- vision he those gaps may be closing because. The American model and so. Current president is strong American -- and he wants to implement some Americans. Policy but this disparity of income gap in the world at the moment I mean. Recently it was on the that the world's richest man is not an American -- and Mexican Mexican as okay. Mexico 54 billion and dolls you know it's Bill Gates look like you know small time let's talk about disparity. And I I I bit over the next 1015 years. You -- few more people. From places like China and India getting on at least. Because of this issue of globalization where the majority of people in those countries two going to be paid very very cool wages. So it's a world away from them and you're absolutely right. Where did you religious people should really make this an issue to make sure that people just painted -- simply. Well and it's also how. I mean we've talked around about this -- -- again about how we use. Other countries. And other labor's. For our own benefit and I remember when I was at the world council of churches when my best friends was Mario from Brazil. And we all had to do continental presentations and so he Unita sent it to do one together and we did one line. United States going in taking him sweeping up on the coffee. Bringing it back here where it's very cheap. And the Brazilians laughed with and higher prices and yet they were the ones who were giving us you know we we -- we were they -- carrying us on their backs and basically it's I -- it's -- it's a very very big problem that I think while to -- say that it sometimes you know we you know wound this. The place to start our -- include clergy. Colored -- you now. Salaries mean yeah. You know you -- in 7080 hours a week and and you and you you ears like the CEO it was small company and you know a lot of problems you'd adult and dealing -- volunteers have been and you lot of complexities and and tragedies and everything on that. And you might only get paid 40000 dollars a year. During the service to god yes Harry or it's gonna be in heaven I hope you know -- -- -- -- -- winter -- -- -- the -- On that -- -- -- all the time we have for today. But take you for joining us this morning for talking religion on Boston's talk station WR KL. We don't -- giants again next Sunday at 5 AM as we continue to discuss issues of the day through our respective religious glances. Thanks to the members of our interfaith panel father -- kunin Catholic chaplain to students at brandeis. Doctor Larry Lowenthal executive director of the American Jewish Committee here in Boston. And mr. -- seven dot go from the Islamic institute of Boston where he serves as director of public relation. Relations and thank you to the members of our to also to our. That the members we only have one bill -- seat for his technical assistance and now this is reverend Yvonne -- extending TU an invitation to comment on today's program. Fortune makes suggestions for topics should like to hear discussed write to us attacking religion Karen WRKO. 20 against street Brighton 2135 -- sit next week. Now we won't have time to do that to ride in unfortunately. On the news is up next and until next time -- the richest of God's blessings be yours